Minecraft Augmented Reality

[Daisjun]

And I think therein lies the problem with this kind of tech. Until someone develops a VR system small enough so it's not noticeable as being anything other than a normal set of glasses, it's not going to catch on.

People aren't going to walk around in public with these.

I was more referring to things like Google Glass that were designed for public use, and even though most of the applications they're showcasing take place in the home or office, I think the demand for something that is usable in public will start to grow.

[FlowerChild]

I was more referring to things like Google Glass that were designed for public use, and even though most of the applications they're showcasing take place in the home or office, I think the demand for something that is usable in public will start to grow.

Yeah, I agree. I see this thing being the tip of the ice burg, and it'll only be a matter of time until they refine these kinds of devices to meet the demand of people wanting to take it outside and basically wear it full time.

Even for something as simple as GPS navigation you can imagine the advantage of having directional arrows drawn straight on the road in front of you, and destination buildings highlighted directly, rather than having to look at a separate screen. I think having a HUD for your life would be rather addictive.

The stuff that scares me about it is not primarily about its use in the home, but more when this starts to spread out into the street and potentially becomes as common as cell phones are today. I'm one of those rare individuals that used to always carry a cell in the early days, and eventually it got to the point where it became "ok...this is getting nuts", and I stopped doing so while everyone else began to really embrace it :)

[Dralnalak]

About eight years ago, a friend of mine owned a shop in my city. He was offered a service that would detect passing cell phones and send messages to them advertising his shop. He refused because any shop doing that to his own phone would never get his business again.

That's one of my worries with AR glasses that can be worn out and about. How long before stores are sending us messages and showing us ads just because we're nearby?


Still, the idea of being able to play with LEGO or Minecraft bricks in a full virtual environment in my house, or being able to lay out the battle for a tabletop RPG like D&D with purely AR miniatures and set pieces, would both be so fantastic I'd have to look into the technology when it got past "too expensive except for sincere early adopters".

[DNoved1]

I don't think this new technology will expose us to anymore advertising than we currently get.

I would think, with the Hololens (or any similar thing), as with other technology, it would be based on requests, rather than forced service.
By this I'm thinking something like the internet and web pages. When I fire up Firefox, I ask for a certain service, like say Youtube. It's not the case that I fire up Firefox and I'm redirected to microsoft.com without my permission.

Certainly, it may be the case the advertisements come along with a given service, as is the case with Youtube. If I open my AR good eats application, I may get advertisements for some big chain like MCDonalds, but at the same time it's not as though it's forced upon me, once I am no longer interested in eating I just turn off that application.

But this is no different than what we have now (ads on the internet, ads on TV, ads in my newspaper).

[FlowerChild]

That's one of my worries with AR glasses that can be worn out and about. How long before stores are sending us messages and showing us ads just because we're nearby?

I think it can easily get far more intrusive and downright insidious than that. What about discoloring an opposing brand to make it look less appealing? Making it look like it costs more than it does? Blocking it out from sight entirely?

What about such techniques being used in a political sense? That ghetto over there hurting your chance in a coming election? Why not turn it into a nice park to passing commuters? Opponent getting too close for comfort? How about moving his check box down an inch so voters so inclined will unintentionally spoil their ballot?

We've all seen sci-fi with people walking by ads directly targeted at them, but I really think that's just the beginning. We're a long way from it, but hence what I mentioned earlier in the thread about not wanting to wake up to dystopian future in which everybody is having corporate controlled imagery projected directly onto their retinas.

Giving a third party this level of control over your perceptions is a pretty scary concept and I think at the very least will usher in a whole new level of propaganda into our lives.

[ylogaj]

All of this kinda sucks for people with only one functional eye :'(

[FlowerChild]

But this is no different than what we have now (ads on the internet, ads on TV, ads in my newspaper).

I think as the years go by the lines between push and pull content are becoming blurrier as the technology advances and advertisers become more savvy.

When you sit down to watch you favorite TV show (or even some mass market games) for example, are you pulling the product placement within it or is it being subtly pushed on you?

Certainly, it may be the case the advertisements come along with a given service, as is the case with Youtube. If I open my AR good eats application, I may get advertisements for some big chain like MCDonalds, but at the same time it's not as though it's forced upon me, once I am no longer interested in eating I just turn off that application.

But how would you feel about it if it takes the form of a good looking girl (maybe in a red dress :) ) walking into a McDonalds or other forms of subtle manipulation that might not be so readily apparent for what they actually are?

[ion]

nothing that AddBlock for eye wear could not resolve

[FlowerChild]

nothing that AddBlock for eye wear could not resolve

Or a spoon :)

[DNoved1]

But how would you feel about it if it takes the form of a good looking girl (maybe in a red dress :) ) walking into a McDonalds or other forms of subtle manipulation that might not be so readily apparent for what they actually are?

Advertising that isn't obviously advertising is a fair point. We have this today too, most notably (for me at least) in the form of certain download pages which have 5+ download links, only one of which is real. Usually I can guess which one it is based on certain clues; I wonder if should something like the above mentioned should begin to appear if people will 'adapt' to notice the subtle clues that signify something is AR, and not reality.

Edit: On second thought, I suppose my example isn't really comparable. 5+ download links signifes that several of them *must* be fake, and they aren't quite advertising

[Sarudak]

I think it can easily get far more intrusive and downright insidious than that. What about discoloring an opposing brand to make it look less appealing? Making it look like it costs more than it does? Blocking it out from sight entirely?

What about such techniques being used in a political sense? That ghetto over there hurting your chance in a coming election? Why not turn it into a nice park to passing commuters? Opponent getting too close for comfort? How about moving his check box down an inch so voters so inclined will unintentionally spoil their ballot?

We've all seen sci-fi with people walking by ads directly targeted at them, but I really think that's just the beginning. We're a long way from it, but hence what I mentioned earlier in the thread about not wanting to wake up to dystopian future in which everybody is having corporate controlled imagery projected directly onto their retinas.

Giving a third party this level of control over your perceptions is a pretty scary concept and I think at the very least will usher in a whole new level of propaganda into our lives.

You know I think people are already highly sensitive to this kind of manipulation and businesses that allowed it would face huge levels of backlash. I've seen massive backlash for much less intrusive and innocently intentioned manipulations (such as facebooks A/B testing). The fact is the glasses are easy to take off so those kinds of manipulations would be almost certainly be noticed by someone and then everyone would be checking for themselves and getting pissed off. Doing anything like what you're talking about would be brand suicide for a business or political candidate.

[FlowerChild]

You know I think people are already highly sensitive to this kind of manipulation and businesses that allowed it would face huge levels of backlash. I've seen massive backlash for much less intrusive and innocently intentioned manipulations (such as facebooks A/B testing). The fact is the glasses are easy to take off so those kinds of manipulations would be almost certainly be noticed by someone and then everyone would be checking for themselves and getting pissed off. Doing anything like what you're talking about would be brand suicide for a business or political candidate.

Now, yes. In 20 years? I doubt it, if things continue as they currently are.

We're becoming more and more accepting of greater and greater intrusion into our lives as time goes by. There's an entire generation that's grown up now with stuff like Facebook that I don't think hardly even question the amount of personal information they're entering into their "permanent record" on a constant basis (social media is another example of something I embraced initially and then ditched entirely with time due to it getting nuts), and for whom "I've got nothing to hide" has become a remarkably short-sighted mantra.

Most of the examples I provided were of course extreme, more to illustrate the extreme potential for abuse. Subtler manipulations (like the thing I mentioned about slightly altering the color of competing brands to make them less appealing) would be much more difficult to detect and may even be operating at an entirely unconscious level (similar to how the word "sex" used to be subliminally added to some print advertising). Initial outrage is to be expected over such things, but with time, the societal patterns that I've witnessed through stuff like cell phone technology becoming common place and how people allow their initial concern over certain things (like being continually tracked like a migrating elk) to slowly be whittled away by a sense of convenience, gives me little faith that more and more extreme examples won't creep in with time as people grow accustomed to their senses being abused.

Anyways man, don't mind me, as I'm perfectly happy to be the crazy old koot in the corner rambling on about our dwindling personal freedom and the increasing levels of outside interference we're accepting into our lives as the years go by. As I said above, my greatest hope in all this is being able to live out the remainder of my life before everything really goes to shit, and if that's the case I'll happily say "fuck y'all and the dystopian nightmare you're going to have to live in" from my death bed :)

[Dralnalak]

You know I think people are already highly sensitive to this kind of manipulation and businesses that allowed it would face huge levels of backlash.

As an additional point on what FlowerChild wrote above, here is a specific kind of insidiously creeping advertising to think about:

In the 1980s, people made fun of the movie "The Goonies" because of the overly obvious product placement that was done in the movie. It was when I first saw people reacting to the fact that companies were inserting advertisements directly into movies and TV. (Meaning the characters using the product, not having the host give it a plug like has been done since black and white television.)

Skip to just a few years ago when not only has product placement in our entertainment become the norm, but it turns out that reruns being shown on TV were being updated with new product placement that wasn't in the original show. Things are being done like changing what was shown on a television screen, adding in items laid out on the coffee table, and changing was on a bookshelf in the background. I remember them specifically talking about "Seinfeld" reruns, but there were other shows mentioned as well.

That's 30 years. As fast as technology evolves, how long before companies and Hollywood are inserting customized advertising right into our entertainment as we're watching it to make sure the advertising dollar gets the most possible mileage? Sites like Hulu already customize your commercials based on your viewing history.


If these advertisers can do all that already and the American public has sucked it up and said, "More entertainment, please," without really lashing back, do you really think the marketing types won't find a way to get us to accept AR manipulation that makes their products sell?

[TheYaMeZ]

I've been having to explain the difference between AR and VR a lot recently because of the hololense announcement.
A few of the applications shown in the demo video don't really lend themselves to AR IMO. For example the Mars thing, why would you not just use a vr headset for that if you just wanted to completely change 'where you were'. Similarly the Minecraft scene didn't excite me at all because it also seems more suited to a full vr experience. Now, the interactive teaching part, that's is one of the areas where I see the future of AR. If I can slip on these goggles and they can highlight which nuts needs to be removed from my car to fix something and how to fix it, then put it back together...

I'm very excited for both of these technologies, for different reasons. But I think Microsoft's AR may have a distinct advantage in that I don't think it will make you dizzy, whereas when I tried Minecraft on the rift I was nauseous within minutes. If this isn't properly addressed them AR may be the only way to go for any of these experiences.

[FlowerChild]

If these advertisers can do all that already and the American public has sucked it up and said, "More entertainment, please," without really lashing back, do you really think the marketing types won't find a way to get us to accept AR manipulation that makes their products sell?

I find the product placement in many modern shows to be absolutely cringe worthy, but I don't think anybody really cares all that much anymore, and maybe few even notice.

I found Fringe to be one of the worst offenders there. I really liked that show, but the constant and what I though to be horribly obvious and contrived placement of high tech gadgets was absolutely terrible.

"Hey! Look at our new branded video phone! Isn't it cool? Look how we can talk back and forth about only vaguely plot related stuff while seeing each other! Don't you want one?"

I also find that TV shows (and movies) are being used more and more to promote political and ideological agendas in subtle ways (or maybe I'm just more aware of it than when I was younger). As a very old-school example, cop shows have always bothered me as with a few exceptions (like I wouldn't diss The Wire or True Detective on these grounds), I find there's always been a rather heavy "respect authority...criminals are stupid and will always be caught...obey us" underlying thematic element to many of them that really grates on my nerves, never mind the more extreme messages that many of them promote today.

[Dralnalak]

"Hey! Look at our new branded video phone! Isn't it cool? Look how we can talk back and forth about only vaguely plot related stuff while seeing each other! Don't you want one?"

I also find that TV shows (and movies) are being used more and more to promote political and ideological agendas in subtle ways (or maybe I'm just more aware of it than when I was younger). As a very old-school example, cop shows have always bothered me as with a few exceptions (like I wouldn't diss The Wire or True Detective on these grounds), I find there's always been a rather heavy "respect authority...criminals are stupid and will always be caught...obey us" underlying thematic element to many of them that really grates on my nerves, never mind the more extreme messages that many of them promote today.

On the obvious front are also those car commercials embedded into some shows now. Several times I have seen scenes where show characters are describing their car features to other show characters for no apparent reason. Because, really, while driving down the road talking about a murder that happened, I'm going to stop and talk about how my car can park itself or has wonderful touchscreen temperature controls.


I agree with you on the police shows. I add two other reasons that make me grumpy about them. One is that I do work associated with criminal law, so I know just how little some of the things that are done in these shows have to do with real law. I've seen too many episodes where the actions of a police officer or attorney would have ruined their case, if not gotten them fired or disbarred. Which leads to the other and more insidious point they drive home: Remember that the rules only apply to the other people, not to the main character cops, who can do whatever they want, stomp on whatever liberty they wish, as long as they know they're right.

I didn't mind it when it was being done by Mackey on "The Shield" because he was supposed to be an antihero. I'm fine with it in action movies because action heroes aren't supposed to follow the rules (or laws of physics). When supposedly honest cops are doing it in what is supposed to be a realistic setting, then it rather irks me.


However, I should not argue with our Hollywood overlords. Obey! Consume! No Thought!

[Rawny]

A little late to the convo but back to the walking and talking crazies, that's why I had wanted this for a long time.
Retro Bluetooth handset
If I used that now, then I"D look like the crazy!
*pout*

[FlowerChild]

A little late to the convo but back to the walking and talking crazies, that's why I had wanted this for a long time.
Retro Bluetooth handset
If I used that now, then I"D look like the crazy!
*pout*

Awwww...now I want one that looks like a muppet. Bonus points if it automatically moves its mouth and waves its arms around with the other side of the conversation :)

[Jesar]

I've always believed two things about technology: our survival and quality of survival depend entirely on our application of knowledge (technology), and that, in a consumer economy, demand shapes the path of technological progress. We could build utopia with our knowledge. That is, of course, if people wanted it and applied themselves to achieving it.

This hololens thing, to me, is proof that advertising agencies are influencing progress far more than the electorate. We've claimed to want privacy and freedom, but didn't want to pay for it. So, now we're stuck with our Google overlords. Oh, and nobody uses bing or yahoo. They suck.

BTW, I'm a 24 year old typing this out on my smartphone, so I'm not anti-tech, our just out of touch with the young people. I just try to be objective to stay smart and sane.

[FlowerChild]

I've always believed two things about technology: our survival and quality of survival depend entirely on our application of knowledge (technology), and that, in a consumer economy, demand shapes the path of technological progress. We could build utopia with our knowledge. That is, of course, if people wanted it and applied themselves to achieving it.

See, the two things I believe about technology are the same as you on the first point. The other is that it's the thing most likely to kill us all :)

I've mentioned it before but the whole "technological progress comes at a cost" theme in BTW is no accident, as it is a subject that I've put a lot of thought into over the years. To me, technological progress is essentially a trade off very similar to living in an area with lots of guns (I've lived in areas with both tons of them, and essentially none at all). Yes, your life is more comfortable to be sure and you're less likely to experience an unpleasant event in your day to day life (people tend to be awful polite when there are a lot of guns around), but if the shit hits the fan, it REALLY hits the fan, and instead of walking away with a black eye or other minor injury, you may not walk away at all.

So, net result is that I feel very neutral about both guns and technology seeing both pros and cons to an excessive amount of either ;)

It's essentially a question of how much power individual people and groups possess and in what manner they are likely to wield it against each other in order to suit their own interests (or in a crisis), and whether or not the level of power we possess is something we're capable of handling responsibly, and what level of collateral damage we can inflict when we fail to. I personally think we passed the point of being able to responsibly handle our level of power somewhere in the last century or so, and that we're essentially slightly more evolved apes that are now waving around ray guns at each other instead of just flinging nice safe poo.

Put another way, technology is essentially power, and I think it all comes down to whether you think humanity would benefit most from more or less power at its disposal right now. Thus I guess it's largely a question of how much faith one has in humanity.

[Jesar]

Put another way, technology is essentially power, and I think it all comes down to whether you think humanity would benefit most from more or less power at its disposal right now. Thus I guess it's largely a question of how much faith one has in humanity.

True. My optimistic bias comes from the fact that I'm not, nor have ever been wealthy, yet still have access to (most) of human knowledge in my pocket. This privelege is essentially given to me because the people most likely to screw us wants me to have it so they can try to convince me to buy their car or their burgers.


As to the poo comment, you've obviously never died of dissentery.

[FlowerChild]

True. My optimistic bias comes from the fact that I'm not, nor have ever been wealthy, yet still have access to (most) of human knowledge in my pocket. This privelege is essentially given to me because the people most likely to screw us wants me to have it so they can try to convince me to buy their car or their burgers.

I sometimes wonder about the old adage of "power corrupts" with regards to the whole concept of technology as power, and wonder if the course of human history is largely one of becoming more and more corrupt. Is our story one of developing ever increasing levels of power and using it to find new ways to abuse each other and our surroundings?

On the other hand, I'm also very fond of what Martin Luther King said with "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice". I hear some truth in that, and it's something I often remind myself of when I think everything is going to hell.

Maybe there's some truth in both and it's all a matter of whether our moral progress can keep pace with our technological.

As to the poo comment, you've obviously never died of dissentery.

I dunno. May have happened during one of my blackouts.

You kids walking around in your new fangled "please make me see things Mr. Gates!" helmets! Back in my day if we wanted to see things we had to take good old fashioned drugs, listen to Pink Floyd, and come up with our own hallucinations! We wound up feeling like shit for days after, and were picking plastic "beans" out of our ass for a week! You kids don't know how good you've got it... ;)

[tedium]

it feels like your fears are this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGvIrf86g4Y
but you should be excited by this:
http://www.ted.com/talks/matt_mills_ima ... anguage=en

i was talking to someone earlier tonight about Nikola Tesla, and they brought up an idea i'd seen in another ted talk. apparently tesla endured an odd mental condition, in which he was able to imagine things around him, and have them remain persistent as though they were real in his mind. some claim he actually couldn't tell the difference. combined with such a brilliant mathematical mind, and some engineering, and he was building CAD style models in his mind that could interact using real world physics and tinker with in real time. some claim this was a massive influence on his ability to reach the cutting edge of science. others say he was an alien time traveller. i just like the idea. catch up to today and imagine where 3d printing is headed. sorry for this slightly chaotic paragraph, the point is the technology opens way to many possibilities to be worthy of fear.

besides, you'll cave and give in when you realise you can buy ikea furniture with an augmented reality tutorial for assembly. of a kit car. or a kit jetpack... ok i'm a dreamer.

[FlowerChild]

sorry for this slightly chaotic paragraph, the point is the technology opens way to many possibilities to be worthy of fear.

I don't fear guns or technology man. I fear people with either.

I also think people tend to put their head in the sand about the negative aspects of things that they want for other reasons, in the unreasoning belief that it will somehow all magically work out in the end. I don't think people are coded to really consider, or believe, the possibility that everything we know and love could be arbitrarily erased from existence, and that all our efforts could ultimately come to nothing. We're instead programmed to pass on a legacy through our children with the underlying assumption that the world they inhabit will somehow be better than our own.

I think those two ideas are largely mutually exclusive, so we wind up doing a lot of stupid shit because deep down we believe that things can not possibly go horribly wrong, and when people try to convince us that something already is, we resist that idea as much as we can so that we can go back to believing whatever makes us happy, rather than what actually makes sense.

Not having the belief that things will work out messes with our desire to reproduce, and that's generally not a favorable trait for a species to possess :)

Every once and awhile though, people do seem to be so overwhelmed by the magnitude of their own actions that the illusion is shattered for a moment and they wind up muttering something really profound like "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds."

catch up to today and imagine where 3d printing is headed.

Print your own 3D weapons?

besides, you'll cave and give in when you realise you can buy ikea furniture with an augmented reality tutorial for assembly

Doubt it. I'm debating with myself whether I'll ever put one of these things on, especially given it's something I've wanted for a very long time now.

[Katalliaan]

catch up to today and imagine where 3d printing is headed.

Print your own 3D weapons?

There's a group that's released plans for a 3D-printed single-shot pistol and have also printed receivers for AR-15s and magazines for AR-15s and AK-47s. Granted, they took the files down after a request by the US DoD, but that's not going to stop people from uploading it to places like Pirate Bay.