You sir are a genius!

[Sarudak]

After a fairly long hiatus I have returned to playing Minecraft and I am astounded again at the masterpiece that you have molded it into. Better than wolves is I believe at the pinnacle of game creations. A masterpiece of game ecstasy. Thank you flowerchild for all of yourself that you have poured into this game and gifted to us to enjoy. I find it truly amazing.

[Rawny]

Except for the hiatus, "copy/paste". Good words Sarudak.
Ty flowerChild.

[Taleric]

It is a work of art :)
Even when you are very familiar with it like the Mona Lisa; take a break come back and just be in awe.

[FlowerChild]

I never know quite how to react to such glowing praise.

Will just say thanks :)

[Mason11987]

I was just recently observing a discussion of some people talking about minecraft mods in general and describing what's lacking with them and what they'd like instead.

I just kept reading like "guys, this was already done a while ago". I described it to someone as sitting around while everyone laments sandwiches and wishes there was a food made of dough with sauce and cheese on top, and I'm just sitting there eating pizza confused about what's going on.

[Sarudak]

I really like the flow of the game especially in the early bits where survival is a priority. Every tactical decision feels meaningful as you move from strategic goal to goal (get tools, find food, find shelter, get permanent light, get iron, etc). And as a player I constantly have to balance competing concerns (never let my food get too low, fire for cooking, stone for tools, efforts to advance to iron) against existential dangers (how late can I stay out at night to chop that last tree?). The tension is exquisite. And the feeling of triumph is also. I continually look forward to what you could create if you had a freer hand and didn't have to deal with people's preconceptions about how the game is supposed to play. :)

[Fret]

yeah, with the last few updates the game really feels like a whole. Since you started with the hardcore changes a long time ago, so much was in flux that not all the stages of the game felt connected. With the last few updates that really has changed. It's a complete game now.

[Sarudak]

Well the hardcore changes are fantastic. But I agree that they have matured quite a bit in that there is no longer a jarring transition between the early game and the rest of BTW. Everything really feels like an integrated whole to me now. And again I can't help but feel excited for what FC could do with full control of the game. Just one example being world-gen. Minecraft world-gen can be interesting aesthetically sometimes but gameplay wise is largely boring. FC has done a good job in making what was there have some meaningful with things like hardcore movement just as one example but there's really only so much he can do without radically altering world-gen. Working from a kind of 'given lemons make lemonade' standpoint on world-gen we now have the meaningful variety we now enjoy (jungles are scary, deserts are laborious and desolate, swamps are desirable, world-gen structures have meaningful rewards). I can't wait to see what he'll make when he has all the ingredients he can think of available and can tweak it to his heart's content.

[FlowerChild]

Thanks, and yeah, I think that's the kind of polish that many modders and developers tend to overlook. "Tying everything together" in a game is actually a hell of a lot of work, and it's the kind of thing that most players won't take notice of as a back of the box feature. However, it has a huge impact on the overall quality of the experience.

So yeah, that aspect definitely fits my own perception of how things have come together into a far more cohesive whole with my ongoing efforts to finalize BTW.

[Sarudak]

Well since nearly every other modder uses forge and thus allows basically any other mod to be installed with the mod they made. Actually tying everything together into a cohesive and balanced play experience is basically impossible for them even if they had the will and ability to do so. As far as developers of other games I can only assume they lack the will or ability. :P

[FlowerChild]

Well since nearly every other modder uses forge and thus allows basically any other mod to be installed with the mod they made. Actually tying everything together into a cohesive and balanced play experience is basically impossible for them even if they had the will and ability to do so.

Yeah, that's a fair point. This kind of balance is definitely something that is sacrificed for the sake of compatibility, although I suspect most people aren't even aware of that trade-off.

I've run into the same kind of things with KSP where people don't really get why compatibility is not just a universally good thing. For most, unless they experience the balance first, and then see that it's actually getting wrecked as they try to cram on more mods, they just don't get it. You basically have to directly show them the problem before they realize it's there, and even then, some will have the tendency of faulting your particular design for it rather than recognizing it as an issue with compatibility.

I've become more and more fond as of late of saying "most people don't even believe game design really exists", as I think it sums up nicely some of the observations like this I've made over the past few years of working on BTW and BTSM. I think most folks have a very tenuous understanding of what a game designer actually does, often confusing it with things like visual design or what have you, and tend to view the fun in a game as a list of features, instead of the crafted whole they become with an extended design effort.

[Sarudak]

Well to that I would say that some people are stupid and a larger group are ignorant but either way it sounds like a competitive advantage for you. When they play your game they may not understand why they're having more fun. They may even hate the features that are ultimately the cause of it but that doesn't mean they're not capable of enjoying the experience. :)

[MrLemon]

Well while were praising FC I'd like to add this: You make every other mod of a comparable scale practically look like a joke.

Basically, the amount of useless features all the other mods add is incredibly high compared to BTW, the huge amount of flashy features in most mods is incredibly high, the amount of boring or rip-off features is incredibly high, the huge portions of most mods that are largely ignored due to poor tech tree planning are incredibly high.

Even in good mods, say Terra Firma Craft or ThaumCraft, the difference is incredibly noticeable, next to BTW, I can't think of another large mod that doesn't look showy, useless or unnecessarily big in some way, everything in BTW is clearly and decisively designed, nothing is added just so it's there and looks cool.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that your "bang for the buck" ideology really works, I'm sure you already knew that, but even to just a random player like me, I can tell it really, really, works.

[FlowerChild]

Well, that's kind of the double-edged sword of huge flashy features. They're great for "back of the box" and will attract a lot of players initially, but they also tend to be a huge development time sink, meaning that you can produce less features overall, and that the ones you do produce are less oriented towards providing sustained gameplay value.

Personally, I'm very happy that I almost always largely limited myself to less flashy features that I felt were consistent with vanilla and which were geared towards producing maximum gameplay value for the time I had to invest in them.

I'm sure I could have attracted a much larger (although I doubt it would be more loyal) fan-base had I gone for the more flashy features that typified early development of the mod (wind mills, water wheels, etc.), but I honestly got sick of the size of the fan-base at a certain point, and realized it was acting more as a detriment to me enjoying what I was doing than anything else, which I think is part of the reason I decided to focus on more low-key stuff with what I view to be more long-term value.

It certainly doesn't attract the kids the way some mods do, but I realized I really didn't want to be doing that anyways.

[Sarudak]

Well you did I believe attract a more mature audience though that tends to have the funds and be willing to pay to support further developments.

[FlowerChild]

Well you did I believe attract a more mature audience though that tends to have the funds and be willing to pay to support further developments.

Yeah, I tend to use the "cigar lounge" analogy in RL conversations. By catering to a specialty audience, and one that I believe has a greater tendency of being financially self sufficient than your average teenage gamer, I think I have discovered a particular niche that is largely untapped. A city can only sustain so many cigar lounges of course before most become largely unprofitable due to having a limited audience, but we currently seem to be living in a "city" that doesn't really have any of them.

Now granted, that's not the reason I did it. This is primarily about making the kind of game that I personally enjoy, I have just noted the above as a happy coincidence in doing so that makes me believe it has the potential for also being commercially viable. I'm obviously not the only one out there that desires this kind of gaming experience and feels that desire isn't being met by most mass-market games.

[Sarudak]

The interesting bit about it to me is that it seems almost definitional that the kind of people who would like the gameplay experience that you like and provide in your games are the ones who are more likely to be financially able to support the games they like. Because people who enjoy challenge and surmounting obstacles are more likely to be successful in life than those who whine about how hard things are and expect to get everything handed to them. PLUS those who enjoy challenge and the feeling of accomplishment are more likely so see the true value of a creation such as better than wolves and part with their own personal resources to support it.

[FlowerChild]

Hehe...I had never thought about it quite that way before :)

On a personal level when I take a look at it many of the attributes I express as a gamer like dogged determination, being invigorated by adversity, and enjoying being presented with situations that require me to think in ways I never have before, were the same that made me a success in my chosen profession. It's a fair point to be sure.

[Sarudak]

By the way when is your kickstarter going to be? I have a fair chunk of money earmarked for that.

[FlowerChild]

By the way when is your kickstarter going to be? I have a fair chunk of money earmarked for that.

I'm trying to decide whether to go kickstarter or another avenue, at least initially. I'll present more info as we get closer to the date.

My current plan is to wrap up these last bits of BTW, spend maybe a month working on some very basic prototying of RTH to give myself a better idea of overall direction, then launch a small funding campaign to maybe cover the first six months of development so I can present a playable prototype to the public before seeking additional funding on a larger scale.

Kickstarter itself presents a number of problems to me though, such as the relatively high cut of the funding they take relative to PayPal donations, and what I believe to be the need to reveal my actual identity (something I'd still prefer to avoid for as long as possible), so if possible, I'd probably prefer to go another route at least for the initial small funding effort.

[Sarudak]

Hum... If you really want to cut down on processing fees are you aware of coinbase? They do payment processing through bitcoin so that might discourage some people. On the other hand they take a 0% cut off the first $1 million according to their site and only 1% after that. Beats the pants off of paypal or any credit card transaction.

[FlowerChild]

Hum... If you really want to cut down on processing fees are you aware of coinbase? They do payment processing through bitcoin so that might discourage some people. On the other hand they take a 0% cut off the first $1 million according to their site and only 1% after that. Beats the pants off of paypal or any credit card transaction.

Yeah...no, this is not the kind of discussion I want to get into :)

Was just trying to provide some information on what you were asking about, not looking for advice on it.

[TheGatesofLogic]

Well while were praising FC I'd like to add this: You make every other mod of a comparable scale practically look like a joke.

Basically, the amount of useless features all the other mods add is incredibly high compared to BTW, the huge amount of flashy features in most mods is incredibly high, the amount of boring or rip-off features is incredibly high, the huge portions of most mods that are largely ignored due to poor tech tree planning are incredibly high.

Even in good mods, say Terra Firma Craft or ThaumCraft, the difference is incredibly noticeable, next to BTW, I can't think of another large mod that doesn't look showy, useless or unnecessarily big in some way, everything in BTW is clearly and decisively designed, nothing is added just so it's there and looks cool.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that your "bang for the buck" ideology really works, I'm sure you already knew that, but even to just a random player like me, I can tell it really, really, works.

I'll go ahead right here and say that this is definitely right concerning the big flashy mod features. BTW has taken itself to a really awesome and unique place and thanks to FlowerChild it is the only mod that really doesn't have any "well this is odd, the balance here isn't quite right" moments.

On a side note: TerraFirmaCraft is no longer what it once was with regards to this. Although it used to be quite patchy with regards to how it covered its intended goals, the latest build (and I attribute this to their PR head Kittychanley for forcing them to fix all the bugs and focus on less interesting aspects for gameplay reasons) included many features that really solidified the mod as a whole. It used to feel like a very short and unfocused branch to MC, but it now feels pretty damn fleshed out, it still has a ways to go before it reaches a level comparable to BTW, but it is definitely the only real competitor.

[FlowerChild]

and I attribute this to their PR head Kittychanley

Ok, I just lol'd at that one. A mod has a PR head? Totally fucking classic.

[Sarudak]

I have quite literally never been more excited about a game than I am about RTH even when I was a kid.