Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

[DaveYanakov]

Funk yeah 700 kilometers! Had some serious wibbly wobbly on my first couple vehicles built with bicouplers but the experiment was a success.

I would probably be progressing faster if I had run through the tutorials or read up on it first but learning rocket science by trial and error is kind of incredibly fun.

[FlowerChild]

Well, I must admit I never paid much attention to planes in KSP, as I really don't view it as the focus of the game (identity crisis and all that). However, I just did have a very pleasant time designing and flying this baby over to the desert continent to the west of KSC, as I worked on balancing the placement of the various plane parts in the tech tree (this one is at T6):

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Apparently, I have a drone program :)

I just managed to make it to the desert biome and finished transmitting my sensor array results as I was gliding downwards out of fuel.

I still don't think much of planes in KSP, and am balancing the science value of plane missions to simply be a little bonus rather than a dependency, but I will admit missions like this are a pleasant bit of gameplay diversity within the rest of the tech progression.

[TheAnarchitect]

I view the point of planes being flying them on other planets that have atmosphere, and/or landing space shuttle style instead of splashdowns.

[PatriotBob]

I always understood planes as being a bit of fun for atmospheric planets, but primarily for the use of SSTO spaceplane lifters.
In my more developed saves(?) I primarily used a SSTO to ferry cargo to/from space and used my rockets for the heaviest of cargo. I understand that this is primarily a function of limitations that are self imposed, but I guess the idea was I could put cargo in orbit with significantly less fuel and parts using a SSTO spaceplane than a traditional rocket. So I think it was an exercise in how it would be when career mode was created with costs associated with fuel and parts, so you would be greatly behooved to limit expenditure.

I will say it's a nice change of pace to fly around a bit, I took a plane for a spin to gather up all the science. Was fairly pleasant, until I had to pop off to the ice caps and barrens... then I just wanted to rocket it over there because that's a whole lot of point-plane-in-direction-browse-reddit.

SSTO spaceplanes are a whole lot of fun in concept, but I think with stock parts alone it really is a novelty rather than anything core. (No stock cargo bays Squad... really?) I would highly recommend giving it a spin with FAR. (Mach effects really force good plane design) And maybe B9 Aerospace... for a little love in the plane parts department. (Because you just have an infinite amount of time to spend on KSP)

[icynewyear]

I still don't think much of planes in KSP, and am balancing the science value of plane missions to simply be a little bonus rather than a dependency, but I will admit missions like this are a pleasant bit of gameplay diversity within the rest of the tech progression.

Thank you for this. I have little to no interest in planes in KSP.

[FlowerChild]

I will say it's a nice change of pace to fly around a bit, I took a plane for a spin to gather up all the science. Was fairly pleasant, until I had to pop off to the ice caps and barrens... then I just wanted to rocket it over there because that's a whole lot of point-plane-in-direction-browse-reddit.

Yeah, I wouldn't recommend flying to those biomes man. I'm certainly not going to in my save, and when you're at tech level 6 or 7, having the hundred or so bonus science points (different values in my version) you may get out of it just isn't worth it.

At the beginning of the tech tree, you more or less have to get all the science you can, but as play proceeds, I open it up a bit so that there are more options available to the player in terms of which experiments they will choose to perform. Let's put it this way: I'm certainly not going to require the player to perform every experiment on every single planet in order to complete the tech tree, so the progression is slowly opening up earlier on to gradually merge into that.

The goo canister a bit earlier on is another example, in that while you can and return them on both the Mun and Minmus as early as tech 5, you really don't need to in order to proceed (well, unless you take the absolute worst kind of path through the tech tree).

[FlowerChild]

You want solar panels?! I give you solar panels!

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So there... ;)

[Battlecat]

Awesome! That looks like a neat probe.

[FlowerChild]

Awesome! That looks like a neat probe.

Well, it doesn't actually do anything. Was just a quick test I threw together to test out various tech level 7 parts. but I thought it looked cool enough to warrant a screenshot :)

[devak]

Awesome! That looks like a neat probe.

Well, it doesn't actually do anything. Was just a quick test I threw together to test out various tech level 7 parts. but I thought it looked cool enough to warrant a screenshot :)

It looks like an Orion spacecraft (y'know, Orion drive, nuclear pulse propulsion).

so yea, awesomeness

[DaveYanakov]

I finally established a stable orbit today. It may have a weird apoapsis of 780km and a periapsis of 71km but dammit, it's mine!

[jorgebonafe]

Mun orbit! Fuck yeah!!
Finally, after much struggle and many crashed rockets, I was able to attain a stable Mun orbit, and got enough fuel and power left for about 5 gravioli tests...

This is the rocket that got me there. First I burned three engines, then the other two, then detached and the next engine got me into orbit and all the way to the Mun.

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About the design, anyone have any comments about it? I tried keeping in mind the lessons learned on the first tech tree (bigger not necessarily better) but with less rockets then this I had barely enough power to get into Kerbin orbit.

I didn't want to ask this before I actually got to the Mun, as that would be a spoiler for me, but now that I got there, anyone got any tips on rocket designs to get to the Mun? I'm not very high tech right now, this is my current tech tree:

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I have 254 points to spend still. I'm slowly debating with myself what to get next, since I can barely understand the tech I have already...

[kaspermwh]

Whenever i reach 250+km and try to land, my mystery goo and parachutes cannot handle the heat and explode, even if they're shielded. Is there a way to deaccelerate? 1600m/s is too fast i guess? : /

[maxsi]

well this is the rocket i used to go to the mun

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by you whant to do a maneuver when you are on the way to the mun so you arrive at a polar orbit.

[jorgebonafe]

Whenever i reach 250+km and try to land, my mystery goo and parachutes cannot handle the heat and explode, even if they're shielded. Is there a way to deaccelerate? 1600m/s is too fast i guess? : /

From the top, can you get into an orbit with about 30k periapsis? I believe falling through an orbit on the other side of the planet is way better then falling straight down, if you can manage the extra fuel to get there.

Something else that I did: I was having problems with my rcs thrusters burning on re-entry, even if they were shielded. My re-entry module had ASA and a monopropellant tank, plus a couple of struts where I put my goo containers, so it was quite tall, and the thrusters were all the way to the top. I added a second heat shield further up the re-entry module just below the thrusters, and they survived just fine then. I don't know if that actually helped or if I just got unlucky before for some reason, I don't know how much the distance to the shield affects the protection, so anyone feel free to correct me on that regard.

[kaspermwh]

Whenever i reach 250+km and try to land, my mystery goo and parachutes cannot handle the heat and explode, even if they're shielded. Is there a way to deaccelerate? 1600m/s is too fast i guess? : /

From the top, can you get into an orbit with about 30k periapsis? I believe falling through an orbit on the other side of the planet is way better then falling straight down, if you can manage the extra fuel to get there.

Something else that I did: I was having problems with my rcs thrusters burning on re-entry, even if they were shielded. My re-entry module had ASA and a monopropellant tank, plus a couple of struts where I put my goo containers, so it was quite tall, and the thrusters were all the way to the top. I added a second heat shield further up the re-entry module just below the thrusters, and they survived just fine then. I don't know if that actually helped or if I just got unlucky before for some reason, I don't know how much the distance to the shield affects the protection, so anyone feel free to correct me on that regard.

So what you mean to say is that i have to be on the lowest point going in orbit and then thrust down? Or do i have to make a curve so i launch from one side of the plabet, and land on the other?

[jorgebonafe]

well this is the rocket i used to go to the mun

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by you whant to do a maneuver when you are on the way to the mun so you arrive at a polar orbit.

Oh, cool... They are surprisingly similar, although you used the lighter liquid fuel tanks in the middle. I wonder what is the difference in their efficiency... Guess I'll test it, why not :)

[jorgebonafe]

So what you mean to say is that i have to be on the lowest point going in orbit and then thrust down? Or do i have to make a curve so i launch from one side of the plabet, and land on the other?

Like this:

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Left is bad, right is good. If you have enough fuel by the time you get below the atmosphere to decelerate a bit, great. I don't think that is really necessary though.

[E.B. Farnham]

About the design, anyone have any comments about it? I tried keeping in mind the lessons learned on the first tech tree (bigger not necessarily better) but with less rockets then this I had barely enough power to get into Kerbin orbit.

Gratz on Munar orbit man. This is the rocket I used for my first orbital mission to the Mun. I recommend the use of boosters. That extra thrust gets you through the first few klicks of atmosphere, allowing you to keep your throttle low, saving fuel and allowing you to spend that fuel later when you can get a whole lot more out of it.

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It has a command module on it as I was testing manned fly bys of the Mun, but I stuck a probe on top and used it for some Mun scanning.

SSTO spaceplanes are a whole lot of fun in concept, but I think with stock parts alone it really is a novelty rather than anything core. (No stock cargo bays Squad... really?) I would highly recommend giving it a spin with FAR. (Mach effects really force good plane design) And maybe B9 Aerospace... for a little love in the plane parts department. (Because you just have an infinite amount of time to spend on KSP)

Yeah personally I think with out the B9 parts there's no point in SSTO's. The vanilla parts just don't allow them to be anything more then crew shuttles and they always look terrible. However with the B9 parts you can actually use them for cargo lifting. My pride and joy is my 50 ton lifter. One orange fuel tank to orbit or anything else that'll fit.

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Taking off.


Deploying a small science lab into orbit.


My over engineered high speed, low drag SSTO. Orbit in 10 mins or less or your money back.

Just out of curiosity: did you notice the experiment description on your first EVA on the Mun? Don't spoil it for people, but I was kinda proud of that one ;)

I did indeed, I just thought Squad must of had some witty bastard working for them. Gave me a chuckle. ;)


And finally today's project. Testing my new 2 man lander. It's over powered for the Mun but it's designed with an eye towards Duna.

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[jorgebonafe]

Oh, cool... They are surprisingly similar, although you used the lighter liquid fuel tanks in the middle. I wonder what is the difference in their efficiency... Guess I'll test it, why not :)

Ok, so I made some tests. I accelerated straight up until the first stage depleted, and then until the second stage depleted. Here are the results:

My design (big tank in the second stage) :

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- First stage got to 32km altitude, at 1012m/s speed, 96km apoapsis.
- Second stage burned out at 257 km altitude, at 3580 m/s speed, and escaped.

Your design (big tank in the second stage) :

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- First stage got to 54 km altitude, at 1678m/s speed, 284km apoapsis.
- Second stage burned out at 362 km altitude, at 2889 m/s speed, and escaped.

Honestly I don't know what it means. The first stage was way more efficient in your design, obviously, since your rocket is much lighter. On the second stage your design burned out further away, but the speed was slower. So.... Yeah, I can't tell which one was more efficient.

[jorgebonafe]

snip

Thanks for the tip, man :) Ok, apparently all designs that reach the moon look like huge monsters, so I wasn't so far off XD

I'll try with boosters on the side, see what happens.

By the way...

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[FlowerChild]

Ok, apparently all designs that reach the moon look like huge monsters, so I wasn't so far off XD

Well, not necessarily. I personally hate booster designs like that as they feel very exploity to me due to the lack of a decent aerodynamic model producing huge amounts of drag when you build sideways like that. Hence why most of my rockets tend to look like rockets :)

I've posted a number of screenshots above of the rockets I'm using to get to the Mun. I'm actually using the same design as the base of some of my first interplanetary trips, as with a lighter payload, I think that rocket is actually capable of taking me into low orbit around the sun (was playing around with that last night and while I didn't make it, I think pulling a slingshot off the Mun will make up the difference).

But yes, they will be large. Remember that the Saturn V, which was the rocket used for the Apollo missions, was the largest rocket mankind has ever built. Without parallel staging or fuel lines, and if you decide to not assemble parts in orbit, you need a beast to be able to pull it off.

Also, it depends entirely on the weight of the payload you're launching. Simple Mun probes can be launched with much less. Here's the rocket I used to launch my first probe to the Mun to take orbital readings at tech 5 on my last play through:

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Compare that to what I used to launch my manned attempts above, and you'll see that payload weight makes all the difference in the world.

So what you mean to say is that i have to be on the lowest point going in orbit and then thrust down? Or do i have to make a curve so i launch from one side of the plabet, and land on the other?

I'd really recommend scrolling back a few pages and taking a look at the reentry procedure I outlined man. Should make your life a lot easier. I even posted some screenshots of vehicles I had designed for reentry.

If you're shooting straight up to 250Km and falling back down, then no, you are unlikely to survive reentry.

From the above, it sounds like you don't have a good understanding of orbital mechanics either. I'd recommend at least doing the vanilla tutorials to get a handle on how and when to maneuver in orbit to achieve different results.

Also, if you have individual parts which are burning off rather than the whole vehicle, the parts in question are likely not within the wake of the heat shield on the way down. You need to pack them in close to the center in order for that to happen, all the while keeping your center of mass low down towards the shield so that it doesn't start flipping when you hit the atmosphere. Here's a screen of the last one I built with goo canisters (I did it at tech level 5 instead of 3 when it's first available, but most of the parts there should be available at 3):

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[PatriotBob]

Yeah personally I think with out the B9 parts there's no point in SSTO's. The vanilla parts just don't allow them to be anything more then crew shuttles and they always look terrible. However with the B9 parts you can actually use them for cargo lifting. My pride and joy is my 50 ton lifter. One orange fuel tank to orbit or anything else that'll fit.

So far the pinnacle of my SSTO program using FAR and B9 was lifting just around 250 tons to orbit. But that was honestly my "Spruce Goose" of SSTOs, very much an exercise in "because I can".

[jorgebonafe]

Also, it depends entirely on the weight of the payload you're launching. Simple Mun probes can be launched with much less. Here's the rocket I used to launch my first probe to the Mun to take orbital readings at tech 5 on my last play through:

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Wow.. that is much smaller then mine... *twss*
I'm gonna test that one, see how it does.

[FlowerChild]

Wow.. that is much smaller then mine... *twss*
I'm gonna test that one, see how it does.

Well, it was basically just my orbiter from the previous tech level with a few boosters strapped on the bottom stage to provide a little more initial thrust to handle the increased payload (probably due to extra fuel and engines added up top in an additional stage to handle going to the Mun). I had played through the early tech tree a number of times already, so I was just kinda rushing through it, as normally it's unlike me to just strap boosters on like that.

The thing to always keep in mind is that getting to orbit around Kerbin is the hard part. The function of most your rocket is to deliver a payload to orbit (including engines and fuel for whatever you're trying to achieve up there), and then whatever stages are left are to actually get the job done (travel to the Mun, take readings, whatever). The more weight you have up in the top stages, the bigger your rocket needs to be down towards the bottom to initially get it off the ground. In other words, the first thing you want to do if you want to reduce the size of your rockets is look up top at what you're actually lifting into orbit, and consider whether you can shave anything off. Looking at the design above, it doesn't even seem like I bothered to do that really, so I suspect I could come up with a much more minimal design :P

Also keep in mind that I have flown to the Mun an ungodly number of times now, so I probably have a really good intuitive feel for an optimal flight path. I've also done an ungodly number of launches, so I also likely have a really good intuitive feel for how fast I should be traveling at different altitudes and when/how to gravity turn (both of which make a *huge* difference to efficiency). Your experience with that rocket thus may vary in the extreme.