Game Company

[saucyjohn]

I just had my greatest dream come true. I found investors who are willing to give me over $250,000 to produce a video game. I want to create a game using a game engine like Assassins Creed. Actually the reason I mention Assassins Creed is because that's pretty much the look and feel I want but since I dont know the first thing about making my own game and selling it I am wondering a few things. Is that even legal or do I need to design my own engine? I am also looking for programmers and artist and sound people. Where should I go to find good ones? Any advice out there? I am 100% serious about this. Any help or direction would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!!

[icynewyear]

If you need a youtuber for some publicity let me know :P

[saucyjohn]

If you need a youtuber for some publicity let me know :P

Icey!!!

Man I love your videos. I watch them all the time. Of course I will contact you!! Thanks so much!!

[Battlecat]

Game engines can be licensed, but you would have to contact the creating company to determine the cost and availability of the engine development kit. In the case of Assassin's Creed, it appears to be an in house one called Anvil (Wikipedia lists games using it). I'm not positive it has ever been licensed to a third party, the Wikipedia page is unclear.

The Source engine (Half Life) and the Unreal engine seem to both be licensed quite frequently, but it would be up to you to determine if they meet your development needs or not. Whatever you do, don't try to use an unlicensed/closed source game engine for a commercial endeavor. Get permission!

Seriously good fortune getting an investor though, congratulations and good luck!

[VegasGoat]

I found investors who are willing to give me over $250,000 to produce a video game.

I dont know the first thing about making my own game and selling it

Honestly, this sounds like a scam, and your "investors" are probably going to scam you. Nobody is going to just give you $250,000 for saying "I want a game with the look and feel of Assassin's Creed", especially when you apparently don't even have a business plan on how to spend that money. Don't be surprised if they ask you for a deposit up front and take off with it, or pull the classic scam where they send you a forged check and ask you to send some of the money back to them via western union, then the check bounces and you're out the money.

I really hope I'm wrong, and I would love to eat crow when you're rich and famous.

[FlowerChild]

I found investors who are willing to give me over $250,000 to produce a video game.

...

I dont know the first thing about making my own game and selling it

<cries>

[FlowerChild]

I'm not positive it has ever been licensed to a third party, the Wikipedia page is unclear.

I believe that's Ubisoft's proprietary engine, at least that's what I think the series was made with.

In which case, I highly doubt it's available for licensing. They have an in house team, and a very large one, devoted to engine development for all their games.

[DaveYanakov]

How on earth did you manage to get a quarter million dollars with no plan to license an engine as part of the pitch? What exactly do you have to start with?

[saucyjohn]

So I found a website called gamedev.net and it has been really useful. For those of you who have some experience if I were to hire programmers, artists and audio engineers and create a team to produce the game, would something like $30,000 for 6 months of work be reasonable? I am looking to create something that wouldnt be longer than 6 hours. A story driven adventure game. Not a lot of mechanics except for farming and fighting. That's why I want a game engine that we can use assets that are already there and just modify them. So I guess UDK would be the way to go?

Sorry if I am not giving enough information. I do want to have a serious talk with someone who knows the business and can help me. I also did mean to make you cry Flowerchild. I dont know why I have this opportunity but this has been my dream ever since I was a kid. I am 40 now and all my life I have worked to try and raise enough money to do this but never had time to invest in researching anything. Now the time has come.

[saucyjohn]

How on earth did you manage to get a quarter million dollars with no plan to license an engine as part of the pitch? What exactly do you have to start with?

Very close friends who have money. I cant believe it either but its coming true.

[Sarudak]

Oh man. I'm very skeptical about the truth of this. But it sounds like a great way to destroy a friendship forever. Take a quarter million of someone's money with no real plan or ability to accomplish...

[FlowerChild]

For those of you who have some experience if I were to hire programmers, artists and audio engineers and create a team to produce the game I want would something like $30,000 for 6 months of work be reasonable?

It's unlikely you could get away with paying programmers in particular, with any amount of experience, less than the equivalent of an annual 50 to 60K US salary. Fresh out of school, you *might* be able to get away with paying as low as 30-40K annually, but I doubt you want to work with people fresh out of school, or at least not make the backbone of your team such people.

Considering this would likely be contract work, you would also likely be expected to pay more (maybe as much as 25-50%) given the total lack of benefits and job security.

This will of course be dependent on region etc, with the above assuming that you're operating within North America. The other fields you mention would likely to be paid a bit less, but keep in mind that these are all highly skilled professions, and don't come cheap.

I certainly hope you weren't talking about 30K total for an entire team :)

250K isn't actually very much with which to make a game man, especially if you aren't filling the shoes of one of the pricier professions yourself and willing to eat dog food while starting up ;)

[FlowerChild]

Also, six months is a do or die schedule. To give you an idea, I'm reserving 6 months just for the prototyping phase on RTH.

I've never known a professional quality game to be developed in less than a year, and you'll have to have both one hell of a lead programmer, and one that's willing to work around the clock to accomplish anything substantial within that time.

[VegasGoat]

Well if it's close friends at least it's probably not a scam from some investors you found online, which is what I originally thought it might be.

The guy who is making Xenonauts basically did what you're trying to do. Started with some money of his own, and found guys online to do the work. It might help to go to the Xenonauts forums and read about his experience. I was following it early on and remember him posting a lot about what he went through.

EDIT: Also, Xenonauts has been in development for YEARS and still isn't done.

[saucyjohn]

For those of you who have some experience if I were to hire programmers, artists and audio engineers and create a team to produce the game I want would something like $30,000 for 6 months of work be reasonable?

It's unlikely you could get away with paying programmers in particular, with any amount of experience, less than the equivalent of an annual 50 to 60K US salary. Fresh out of school, you *might* be able to get away with paying as low as 30-40K annually, but I doubt you want to work with people fresh out of school, or at least not make the backbone of your team such people.

Considering this would likely be contract work, you would also likely be expected to pay more (maybe as much as 25-50%) given the total lack of benefits and job security.

This will of course be dependent on region etc, with the above assuming that you're operating within North America. The other fields you mention would likely to be paid a bit less, but keep in mind that these are all highly skilled professions, and don't come cheap.

I certainly hope you weren't talking about 30K total for an entire team :)

250K isn't actually very much with which to make a game man, especially if you aren't filling the shoes of one of the pricier professions yourself and willing to eat dog food while starting up ;)

Ok this is very helpful. Maybe you dont have the answer to this but how much money would you recommend I need? I am willing to hire for annual. We can provide benefits and job security.


So if I had a team of four people at $50,000 each would that not be enough to produce a game in at least beta form? I wasnt aware of that. What would you say I need in my case then?

[Western-Knight]

Well maybe this won't help much. But I used to love to write and lately I've not had much motivation to do it. I've got more than enough free time to help develop a story free of charge. (Unless of course the game actually gets big. Then I'll want a cut... Just a small one, I'm not selfish.) It'd just be something to occupy my vast amounts of bored time, and maybe I'll finally get something good done. (I'm told I write well, but... I don't believe so.)

Either way my friend, good luck on your venture.

And unless I'm wrong, if he were to pump out a decent enough beta in the 6 month period, it wouldn't be too hard to get more investments/player donations. I personally know little about game development, so that could just be my worthless two cents.

[FlowerChild]

So if I had a team of four people at $50,000 each would that not be enough to produce a game in at least beta form? I wasnt aware of that. What would you say I need in my case then?

I think 50K per team member for six months is a more reasonable cost estimate, but that's about as deep into this as I'm willing to go. Sorry man, but this whole thing strikes me as being somewhere out in fantasy land. I'm envious of your starting capital with the knowledge of what I could do if that kind of thing fell in my lap given my level of experience, and I congratulate you on your (initial) good fortune, but that's about where this begins and ends for me.

The guy who is making Xenonauts basically did what you're trying to do. Started with some money of his own, and found guys online to do the work. It might help to go to the Xenonauts forums and read about his experience. I was following it early on and remember him posting a lot about what he went through.

Working online with people is a bitch and a half. I've done it before, and I'd say only about 25% of the people you hire wind up being capable of working productively in that kind of environment. It requires a truly uncommon amount of self motivation. It also requires highly experienced management that you can trust in order to track the actual output of your employees, as it's much harder to get an impression of how people are performing than in a physical office. Being able to spot problem individuals rapidly (and most of them will be a problem) is crucial for that kind of thing to succeed.

You wind up saving the costs of maintaining a physical location, and you open yourself up to the potential inherent in having access to a global workforce, but that saving likely gets quickly pissed away in the high turnover rate and people under producing due to not being under constant physical surveillance in the workplace (not sure how else to put that...it's the unfortunate reality of it), especially if you don't have a keen eye for the various professions working under you. I'd do it, and I probably will if I ever grow my own thing to a size where it would make sense, but I really wouldn't recommend it to anyone unless they 100% know what they're getting into and have sufficient industry contacts to get trusted people on board from the get go. You can get lucky and happen to stumble upon the right people right from the start, but I consider it highly unlikely that you will.

[saucyjohn]

So if I had a team of four people at $50,000 each would that not be enough to produce a game in at least beta form? I wasnt aware of that. What would you say I need in my case then?

I think 50K per team member for six months is a more reasonable cost estimate, but that's about as deep into this as I'm willing to go. Sorry man, but this whole thing strikes me as being somewhere out in fantasy land. I'm envious of your starting capital with the knowledge of what I could do if that kind of thing fell in my lap given my level of experience, and I congratulate you on your (initial) good fortune, but that's about where this begins and ends for me.

The guy who is making Xenonauts basically did what you're trying to do. Started with some money of his own, and found guys online to do the work. It might help to go to the Xenonauts forums and read about his experience. I was following it early on and remember him posting a lot about what he went through.

Working online with people is a bitch and a half. I've done it before, and I'd say only about 25% of the people you hire wind up being capable of working productively in that kind of environment. It requires a truly uncommon amount of self motivation. It also requires highly experienced management that you can trust in order to track the actual output of your employees, as it's much harder to get an impression of how people are performing than in a physical office. Being able to spot problem individuals rapidly (and most of them will be a problem) is crucial for that kind of thing to succeed.

You wind up saving the costs of maintaining a physical location, and you open yourself up to the potential inherent in having access to a global workforce, but that saving likely gets quickly pissed away in the high turnover rate and people under producing due to not being under constant physical surveillance in the workplace (not sure how else to put that...it's the unfortunate reality of it), especially if you don't have a keen eye for the various professions working under you. I'd do it, and I probably will if I ever grow my own thing to a size where it would make sense, but I really wouldn't recommend it to anyone unless they 100% know what they're getting into and have sufficient industry contacts to get trusted people on board from the get go. You can get lucky and happen to stumble upon the right people right from the start, but I consider it highly unlikely that you will.

Well I appreciate all your input!! Thank you so much FC.

[Gilberreke]

I had a similar offer a few years back that I turned down, so I believe you that it's possible to find funding.

Quick run-down:

Graphics:
If you want modern 3D graphics with that budget, you need:
- a licensed engine, no way in hell can you produce anything worthwhile engine wise with that money. Luckily, there's a bunch of good options in your price range.
- a 3D modelling artist with the following qualities:
* experience working as a drone for a big company. Even a year of experience in that environment produces someone who is fast at what they do
* a website with a portfolio that shows off creativity. You don't have time to oversee everything he/she does, so you need a creative, independent individual
* quality of work is less important! Can't stress this enough, but if you choose the person with the "prettiest" portfolio, you're probably not selecting him/her on the criteria you actually need. If you want top-notch art assets, you'll need a bigger budget.

Development:
Here, you're looking for experience. Specifically developers with a high success rate. Don't select on creativity, get someone with years of programming experience, knowledge of the engine you're licensing and a bunch of completed projects. There are quite a few programmers out there with lots of experience, that didn't necessarily work on big titles (you won't be able to pay those). Get someone who gets stuff done and preferably not someone who has a bunch of "own ideas". Get someone you have control over and who is willing to work with you towards a vision set by others.

Design:
This is the most important part! Get someone who can actually come up with a game that's fun to play. You NEED someone with experience designing games, be it video or board games. Someone who is good at planning ahead for a tight schedule. This person will be responsible for taking the concept and turning it into a game, prioritize what is essential to the game and what's not, so you can start working on essential parts first. This is not the same as a programmer! The two are completely unrelated skills.

My suggestion for a 4-people team:

Designer/Production Lead
Lead Developer
3D Artist
Concept Artist - first
Second Developer - last

Set up a business plan of the kind of game you want in detail. Get the lead developer to start work on it. Get a concept artist together with your game designer to flesh out the game. Have the two of them direct the 3D artist, so he can start working. Once you have a bunch of visual designs, you don't need the concept artist anymore and you fill his spot by a second developer.

Prioritize! Develop the game in a way that you move from prototype to prototype. This means that if funding runs out (it will), the latest prototype is your end product. This means that after the end of each month, there needs to be a working game and you use the next month to expand on it. You don't want time or money to run out, ending up with a bunch of assets that are not a working game. At that point you're screwed.

[Wafflewaffle]

I want to write a wall of text to you listing all the possible things that could go wrong if you take someones money and go headfirst into any market without a proper plan or study. I know shit about making games but i know some things about economy and markets. Study about it, make sure you fully understand the consequences of a failure and then make up your mind.

Passion is great, but sometimes it makes you blind to your real objectives and the obstacles you will be facing.

Maybe ill write some about this investor of yours once i get home

[PatriotBob]

Man, I read this and I died a little... I mean that's great and congrats and all, I hope it goes well. But man am I envious of starting capital like that especially when you have no experience.

Gilberreke and I don't agree on a lot... but he's pretty spot on. Unfortunately with 250k budget, you either have to turn out a game in 6 months and pay average, or you pay starts to dip down to the point where you're not going to be able to attract the talent needed.

Beyond the nightmare of getting good talent for the price and duration... Limit your scope. Make sure you aim for a small, achievable game that will sale and be fun. Otherwise you will either be over budget and never finish, or have to rush and ship unfinished.

[Gilberreke]

Gilberreke and I don't agree on a lot... but he's pretty spot on.

We have a different vision on life, but I respect you dude :)

[userzero]

I've made a couple of small games with little to no budget. Lately I've been lucky to have a little money to spend and I've found, especially for the individual working alone, Unity is a great source if your looking for ease and speed of development on the cheap. The asset store is unbelievably cheap(compared to the cost of hiring someone to produce the content) and often if you contact the artist/designer of a model or rig they will make you something custom ( or at least different enough to not look like the same thing that's in another game) for a fairly reasonable price. Seriously, for under $1000 you an get some major resources that would equate to hundreds of hours of dev time.

My two cents on hiring people, I prefer to pay for specific things. If I need an animation or a specific piece of code that might be at the limits of my abilities or might take me a longer time than someone else, I pay someone to produce that specific thing with payment on delivery. This way I do not care if it takes them one or a thousand hours, my budget is the same and I either get the content or I keep the money. One thing I almost always insist on with in game art is an exclusivity clause, it pisses my off to pay someone to make something and then see it being used somewhere else or available for free on some site.

The stuff I've worked on has been mostly 2d and geared towards IOS and android, but I'm working on a 3d desktop project now which is why I moved to Unity. I make games for fun and the challenge, I do not need to make a profit. The first few games I made were for toddlers and I made them specifically for my two year old daughter.

[saucyjohn]

First off I really want to thank all of you for the amazing insight and support you have given me. Thank you for taking the time to help me and give me direction in this venture.

Western-Knight I will get in contact with you shortly and see what kind of opportunity there will be for you and see if you are interested in this project.

Gilberreke, You have been an incredible encouragement but you know that already. I just wanted to thank you again and I will be Skyping with you at the soonest convenience.

Wafflewaffle. I would love that "wall of text" as you called it. Please if you have the time feel free to send anything my way.

Patriotbob, Thank you as well. I am currently communicating with a talent agency in Montreal called 3Pod, http://www.3pod.ca/ They actually have helped startup companies get started and have a really impressive resume. I am thinking this is probably the besy investment in terms of finding the talent I need. If you have time I recommend everyone check them out. Its an awesome website as well.

Userzero, now that is interesting for sure. I would love to hear from anyone else in regards to the information that you have given. I was looking at Unity and I was thinking the same thing. Wondering why I cant make a bigger game with all the assets that Unity provides. SO do you think its possible to create something more akin to Legend of Zelda style with Unity in a year with the kind of cash flow I mentioned. Hiring a team of four or five people for a year?

Anyone else who wouldn't mind giving some input into the suggestion that userzero made regarding Unity I would really appreciate it.

Once again thank you all so much!!

[Gilberreke]

Unity seems to be a great choice. I haven't personally looked into it, but it's got major traction in the gaming community right now, meaning there ARE tons of developers familiar with it and there tons of opinions online for you to read. IIRC, FlowerChild is looking at it for a possible candidate for RTH and seems mostly pleased with what he's seen so far.

To get a fair look at it, maybe you want to compare a few different products to see what competitors offer?

Also, one last tip: while there is an insane amount of people on this forum interested in game development and design, it also interferes with the aims and goals of the forum here to use it for these kinds of threads. There is a forum I'm part of called Game Developers Refuge, more geared towards getting information on game development. A thread there might provide you with a bunch more information.

http://gamedevelopersrefuge.org/

The forum is comprised of some professionals, some hobbyists, some artists, etc, all highly interested in the making of games.