Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

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jorgebonafe
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by jorgebonafe »

FlowerChild wrote:
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Thank the fucking gods of tentacled spikeyness...

Ok, I must admit I was getting rather frustrated here as the number of parameters I have to tweak just wasn't sufficient to balance things right. I'd adjust something in one part of the tech tree in order to balance the early game, and it would fuck up something else entirely in the later game.

One of the big problems here, that I've mentioned before, was the inability for me to specify which celestial bodies experiments applied to, and which didn't. This would cause weird effects like not being able to perform a surface experiment on the Mun for example, unless I also allowed it on Kerbin, which lead to the need for those stupid "calibration" experiments on the launchpad.

Try as I might over the past few days, I just couldn't figure out a reasonable method to change that through code either. The modability of the science system is rather lacking at present, and without any decent documentation or source code to refer to, I was largely stumbling around blind and it was beginning to piss me off more and more.

It got so bad tonight that I almost threw in the towel entirely as I couldn't get things just right and I was getting increasingly frustrated by my inability to make what should be simple changes to get it there, and instead having to jump through crazy hoops to balance a system that I really felt needed to be changed at a lower level.

That was when I had a bit of a lateral thinking moment just now and asked myself "well...I can't block science experiments on certain bodies, but I wonder if I can change the multipliers associated with certain bodies?".

A few minutes of digging through the code later, I ran a quick test where surface Kerbin gave me 10X the science value it normally would and I almost shouted with joy.

Now obviously, I don't want a ten times multiplier on science on the surface of Kerbin (more like I want a zero multiplier to completely blank it out), but it was the quickest test I could think of to see if my method works :)

So...much happiness. For example. I no longer have to worry about the Gravioli meter providing sufficient science to advance in the early tech tree, and then nuking the whole progression when you orbit the Mun because of the 4X multiplier being applied. I can just change the multiplier on the Mun instead. I can nuke the surface experiments on Kerbin entirely and be done with it. I can adjust the value of the other planets later in the tech tree so that a single interplanetary trip doesn't buy the entire tree because of the ludicrous modifiers currently applied.

<dances>

Ok, now I think I can really get the sucker done instead of endlessly fucking around with values trying to hit the sweet spot that will somehow make everything work without breaking everything else.
Although its good that you found a different way to solve your problem, the underlying issue of the game being so difficult to mod simple changes with code is still there... It seems likely you'll come across this limitation again in the future... I hope that doesn't happen, though... Seems funny that modding for this game isn't well documented, considering there seems to be a lot of mods out there already for the game, you'd think more people would have already had similar problems...

On another note, I've really wanted to try playing this game for a while now. As soon as I have some time off from college, that is, and I can get some spare money to buy it... In about month perhaps...
Better Than Wolves was borne of anal sex. True Story.
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FlowerChild
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

Well, I think the number of mods out there is more a testament to how much people love the game rather than the quality of the API. I'm not faulting Squad for that at all. The game is very much in development, so I can't expect an API to be at the top of their priority list. It certainly wouldn't be for me in their shoes.

Having looked at the source for multiple mods now for reference, other than the basic ones, they're pretty much all hacks of one form or another to try and bypass the system in some way to do cool shit. While that's fine and all, and they do indeed pull off some cool shit, I have a hard time handling it, as like I said, I'm used to having the actual source at my disposal, and having to wrestle with the code base in this fashion to get things done is not my cup of tea. I'm a very results oriented kind of guy, and I get no thrill out of having to hack an existing code base to achieve them. It's just an additional headache I'd rather not have to deal with.

I think it's probably particularly bad in my case though given that R&D is a new system, thus the modability of it is particularly limited, and I suspect most of the community is still figuring out how things work. If you ever want a headache, check out the source code for the TreeLoader mod. I took a look at it earlier today as I was thinking of changing some of the text descriptions on a few of the tech nodes, and while that seemed like a simple thing to do in my mind, after looking at that source, doing so immediately went to the top of my "fuck this noise" list.

Heck, even the thing I mentioned earlier about changing science values on the various celestial bodies is a total hack, it just happens to be a simple one. What I'm basically doing is every time a flight starts, I'm scanning through all the planets and crap floating out in space, doing a string compare on their names for stuff like "Kerbin" and "Mun", then have hardcoded overrides of their science values that I use to replace the defaults. I just got lucky in that those vars just happened to be left as public and I thus have access to them, because I just didn't have access to the appropriate variables in the other methods I thought of potentially doing something similar (hence why I was so happy when this one worked).

Anyways, just not what I enjoy doing overall. I'm determined to get this release out, and then I'm likely to adopt a "wait and see" attitude on upcoming releases of KSP to see what I'm going to do with this in the future.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by jorgebonafe »

Its sad that you have to stop working on what you enjoy because of such limitations... Which I guess is not so different from the "swimming against the current" that was working on BTW in regards to the vanilla changes... I can see how doing that again would be very taxing indeed. One more advantage of making your own game, I suppose...
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Larmantine »

Sorry for the slight off-topic, but KSP is now 40% off in Steam, for anyone who hasn't bought it yet!
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by DaveYanakov »

I finally got some time to install and run this yesterday. I am coming at KSP almost entirely cold as previously all I did was explode rockets for giggles in the demo so there are a few things I am having to work out for myself.

I am having a blast working out by trial and error exactly what is causing my rockets to lean after liftoff. It is frustrating to lose launch vehicles but when I did manage to get gravioli detectors up to 120km? Utter bliss.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by PatriotBob »

FlowerChild wrote:I just got lucky in that those vars just happened to be left as public and I thus have access to them, because I just didn't have access to the appropriate variables in the other methods I thought of potentially doing something similar (hence why I was so happy when this one worked).
Preface: Now I know that spending time hacking is not what you enjoy doing, and that we only get to enjoy these projects because you love making them. So I'm offering this up simply so you're aware of it and not that you should be somehow obligated to make use of it.

From what I can tell KSP is fully written on .NET CLR so accessing and changing protected/private variables is possible through Reflection. Generally decompiling their binaries is required to find these internal variables, so it can be firmly placed in the 'hack' category. But it can be done if the situation is dire.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by jorgebonafe »

Larmantine wrote:Sorry for the slight off-topic, but KSP is now 40% off in Steam, for anyone who hasn't bought it yet!
Thanks for that... I was gonna wait a bit before buying this, but now it seems like the best opportunity.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

PatriotBob wrote: Preface: Now I know that spending time hacking is not what you enjoy doing, and that we only get to enjoy these projects because you love making them. So I'm offering this up simply so you're aware of it and not that you should be somehow obligated to make use of it.

From what I can tell KSP is fully written on .NET CLR so accessing and changing protected/private variables is possible through Reflection. Generally decompiling their binaries is required to find these internal variables, so it can be firmly placed in the 'hack' category. But it can be done if the situation is dire.
Yeah, I'm aware such stuff can be done, but I'm only aware of it because Squad specifically forbids it in their plugin conditions. You basically aren't allowed to decompile or use any tool that makes private variables or functions visible.

Not that I want to get into that anyways man. Again, just way too many hoops to jump through for me, especially on what is just a side project.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

Okeley dockely...I'm not quite done everything I wanted to, but the early tech tree is beginning to get that angelic choir moment that I aspire towards, and thus I want to let you guys play around with this while I wrap up loose ends.

Thus, I present to you version 0.00999 of BTSM:

Download Link

Installation instructions (these are important...read them):

-Go here: Deadly Reentry link and download Deadly Reentry Continued. You need to install this FIRST, before BTSM, otherwise my tweaks to Deadly Reentry won't take effect, and the overall balance will be WAY off. I'm working with the author/maintainer of that mod to eliminate this install order dependency, but for now, this is the way it is.

-Install BTSM by copying everything in the .zip file into your KSP directory (this is also how Deadly Reentry is installed BTW).

And here's the change log for this release (which can also be found in the readme):

WARNING: This release represents a pretty extensive rebalance of many aspects of BTSM. Thus, I would highly recommend starting out a new career with it, as things will definitely get whacky with a save from a previous version. Obviously BTSM is still very much WIP, so compatibility with saves from previous versions can not be expected.

-Reworked pretty much all the tech levels. I'm happy with everything up to and including tech level 5 (where you get your first manned capsule), fairly happy with tech level 6 (Mun landing) but will likely tweak this a bit more, and have *partially* fleshed out the remaining tech levels. I'll likely be putting out another release within the next couple of days to cover the remaining tech levels and balance for the other planets (this is largely all stock parts so it should go rather quickly), but wanted to get this prerelease out to you guys so you could give the first few tech levels a go. With all the changes in this release they are *much* more refined than in the previous version.

-Added Deadly Reentry Continued as a "required mod" to be installed alongside BTSM, and balanced its values to fit with the rest of the gameplay I'm shooting for. BTSM players don't need to manually tweak any settings or anything like that as I've taken care of that part in the BTSM config files, but you do need to manually download and install Deadly Reentry yourself. It can be found here: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/thr ... ntinued-v3 . Mucho thanks go to the mod author/maintainer NathanKell for helping me out with getting everything working the way I wanted it.

-Added a rudimentary life support system that causes the various command modules to consume electricity if they have any kerbals on board (the cost is the same regardless of the number on board). If the ship runs out of energy, kerbals on board will be killed. Note that this creates a distinction between command and landing modules in that landing modules will consume far more energy for life support due to poor shielding, meaning that you will generally not want to keep your Kerbals in them for extended journeys (like to the Mun and back), but will rather want to leave them empty until they are to be used. Note that Kerbals on EVA do not currently have or consume electricity for life support, so sending them EVA to keep them alive is a known exploit and will be resolved in a future release. For now, just don't do that :)

-Added a number of separate parts that act as early game low-tech equivalents to stock parts, so that by the end of the tech tree you'll have a full selection of the regular vanilla parts in the game (well, that's my goal anyways: at present the command pods in particular are still being directly modified from stock values). At present, these parts just use the stock models, so I apologize for the visual confusion there, but this should be considered placeholder until I find an alternate solution.

-Added SAS functionality back into manned capsules and cockpits under the assumption that it is not an actual SAS system involved, but is rather the crew keeping the vessel straight for you. I did this because with the addition of Deadly Reentry, keeping your command module pointed in a straight line becomes a much much bigger concern, and your Kerbals are well motvated to do it for you :)

-For similar reasons, added *small* (and I do mean small...you won't be able to reasonably turn an entire craft with them) reaction wheels back into the Mark I Command Pod so that you'll have a measure of attitude control on reentry. I've also tweaked the M1-2 pod to have slightly larger reaction wheels than the MI, but still *MUCH* smaller than vanilla. Again, these integrated reaction wheels are NOT something you can navigate an entire rocket with so fins and RCS (or a separate reaction wheel part) are still very much a necessity with these capsules when they are a part of larger vessels.

-Removed sensor display functionality on the Thermometer, Gravioli Detector, Barometer, and Seismic Accelerometer. They would bug out the UI if used and make running experiments with these instruments impossible (vanilla bug), plus they just weren't very useful in that role to begin with.

-Removed all science value on the surface of Kerbin for all experiments. No more silly calibration experiments, and after all, this is a space program game, not a Tour De France one.

-Moved the Aerodynamic Nose Cone down to tech level 3: Survivability, to provide a little more flexibility in early rocket design, since the Standard NC really didn't fit well with some rocket designs at this stage. This is largely an aesthetic thing, since nosecones don't seem to have any discernible effect on rocket performance other than adding weight and drag (they're supposed to have some positive effect in .22, but no one seems to know what they actually do, if anything). HOWEVER, note that with Deadly Reentry nose cones can come in very handy for slightly shielding heat sensitive parts below them, especially on ascent. This is particularly useful for say putting a nosecone on your probe core, then attaching the low tech batteries to the core beneath the "umbrella" of the cone, as those low tech batteries are extremely heat sensitive and will have a tendency to burn off first at high speeds.

-Moved the inline stabilizer from tech 5 to tech 4, as reentry without one (especially on the early tech probes) is exceedingly difficult. Seriously, if you're trying to reenter with a probe, do yourself a favor and make sure you have an SAS module. You can do it manually without, but it's far from easy.

-Reduced the weight of the early tech batteries slightly, reduced the power to transmit some early game experiments, and increased the weight of the thermometer, all to make transmitting data instead of carrying multiple instances of the same experiment slightly more attractive. In combination with the addition of Deadly Reentry, there's really no good reason to load up on experiments anymore and try to return them back to Kerbin when you can just transmit results.

-Rearranged which tabs certain parts appear in the vehicle assembly building for greater clarity because with some of the new parts I added in, some tabs were getting excessively crowded, and my custom parts were sometimes appearing in the same tabs as stock parts with the same models causing confusion as to which was which. For example, RCS tanks now appear under the control tab with their corresponding thrusters, xenon tanks and electric engines appear under the propulsion tab, wheels and stack separators now appear under to control tab, and jet engines, jet fuel tanks and parachutes now appear under the aerodynamics tab. I've basically tried to reorganize things so that they make a little more sense and to avoid the problem where some tabs have multiple pages of parts while others are almost empty, which should hopefully make finding the parts you want easier once you get used to the new system.

-Replaced the modular girder segment at tech level 3 with octagonal struts instead. Turns out that modular girder segments have a whole host of exploits associated with them this early in the tech tree (thanks to Stormweaver for cluing me into this) that allow you to do some truly crazy stuff, so they and other similar parts have been pushed to *much* later unlocks. I've also increased the weight of the octagonal struts to make them more in keeping with other structural parts as they weighed next to nothing before. Note that these struts are particularly useful when trying to balance craft for reentry (you want them to be bottom heavy so that they don't start flipping in the atmosphere).

-Reduced the strength of integrated reaction wheels on just about everything. They were ridiculously overpowered before and as a result largely eliminated the need for RCS thrusters.

-Decreased the dry weight of the Rockomax BACC Solid Fuel Booster slightly as its performance relative to the smaller booster was actually pretty crappy despite it being an "upgrade".

Known issues:

-Currently there is an install order dependency between BTSM and Deadly Reentry. I'm working with the maintainer of DR to resolve this, but for now, make sure to install DR first, then BTSM afterwards so that DR will have its values properly adjusted for BTSM.

-There are a couple of problems in Dead Reentry at present that the author is actively working on correcting, but which I want to point out here: first, vehicles may randomly explode when you first launch them, or when you switch to them in flight. On launch, just revert back to the VAB, then relaunch and it should be fine. In the case of vehicles in flight, the only thing I can recommend is creating regular backups of your saves for now so that you can reload should this happen. Secondly, after a vehicle burns up on reentry, returning to the space center directly can result in a frozen interface where you won't be able to click on various buttons and interface hot spots. To avoid this, if a vehicle burns up on reentry, I recommend reverting to launch before doing anything else. This seems to reactivate the interface to work around the problem.

-At present, you can't transfer crew through docking ports, which can make certain missions at tech level 6, before you have access to RCS thrusters on your space suits, more difficult than they should be. I'll likely be adding the ability to transfer crew through docking ports in the near future.

-Currently, the surface sample experiment can be transmitted at 100% efficiency and the samples do not need to be brought back to Kerbin. Obviously, this isn't ideal, but I did this intentionally as there's currently no way to transfer samples between vehicles, which would be particularly important for Mun landings and such. It's already been announced that such transfers will be possible with vanilla 2.3, so I've decided to just allow the results to be communicated for now until that feature is released. Ideally surface samples would also have storage containers associated with them, and would have mass, which are things I'll likely take care of in the future if not part of 2.3.

-Some of the tech nodes, especially late in the tech tree have inaccurate descriptions, names, and icons at present (e.g ion and nuclear propulsion, which have nothing to do with those kinds of tech anymore). I'll be taking care of that in the future as it's a bit of a pain to adjust and it obviously doesn't affect gameplay balance.

-I'm still not entirely happy with the balance between command and landing modules, especially around tech 6. At present you can still get away with using a landing module on reentry and such (provided you attach a heat shield), which I really don't like, and I'll be attempting to rectify that in the future.

-Life support does not currently display the rate at which it is draining energy in the resources drop down at the top right of the screen. Your energy is still depleted, it just won't show up in the delta number. Will fix this in the future.

-The eventual intent with the Science Jr material studies thingy (available at tech level 8) is that it can only be operated by Kerbals on EVA, meaning you'll have to successfully land manned missions on various planets to use it, and then return it to Kerbin to study the results. Unfortunately at present it's not a simple task to restrict it to EVA use but I'll hopefully take care of this in the future. For now, if you want a real challenge in keeping with the spirit of BTSM in the late game, I'd suggest restricting yourself to only using it on manned missions. It provides an ungodly amount of science to correspond to the difficulty of pulling this off.

Enjoy! :)
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Marasambala »

Ah, thanks for releasing this before you were totally done. So far the balance is really good. I seem to just barely able to get the science I need for the next node.
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Larmantine
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Larmantine »

Marasambala wrote:Ah, thanks for releasing this before you were totally done. So far the balance is really good. I seem to just barely able to get the science I need for the next node.
That's true. Also, early manned missions are hardcore. Most of my designs survive the small reentry but the parachutes will explode upon deploying, because of the high speed (~200-300m/s) and weight. I even added reversed thrusters to minimize the speed upon landing and reentry, because SAS and RCS can't handle the tilting down upon falling. Still even with reversed thrusters, most of my missions fail. I am now making designs and writing down everything that I do and test. That really helps. Thanks for making me do that, because previously everything was available to me, and things like math, advanced staging and adding action groups to thrusters weren't important.

Well done, FC, well done.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Stormweaver »

I've been playing for a little while now, and I have to say it's getting interesting.

Just bought my first T3 node; liquid fuel. The new engine available there is brilliant; even without control surfaces, the flight up is still engaging as you have to balance the engine's natural overheat, the added heat from being in that band of atmosphere that likes setting you on fire, and still getting as much thrust out of it as you can while still pointing approximately up. All three choices at the tier seemed viable; control surfaces would have let me hit 'high above kerbin' and manned flight would have gotten recovery science and crew reports.

The bug with exploding on reentry is a pain when KSP takes about a min to start up and you've just gotten science, but it's not like it wasn't happening occasionally before with vKSP anyway.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Stormweaver »

Well, I've figured out a way of getting around the menu freeze on burnup thingymabug. So long as you get your ship high enough in the first place, once you've got your science and you know you're going to burnup and explode in the atmosphere, you can just go to the space station before you re-enter. The flight will continue as normal, and proceed to burn up and what have you, without you needing to watch it, revert any flights or having to reload the game.

And most importantly, you keep your science.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

Glad you're enjoying it so far guys :)

A few other things I wanted to share, but was rather pooped last night when I put this out:

First, reentry. There's basically two things you have to keep in mind while reentering: speed and atmospheric density. Reentering is largely an aerobreaking maneuver. You want to bleed off as much speed as possible while in the thinner portion of the atmosphere, otherwise you'll be going too fast when you hit the dense bits and generate more heat than your shield can withstand.

The first heat shields you unlock, both the separate part you get at tech level 4 and can use to reenter your first probes (which is amply rewarded if you manage to return two goo canisters from both high and low orbit), and the integrated shield on the mk1 command pod are balanced for reentry from *low* kerbin orbit (if you try to reenter directly from high kerbin orbit you'll be going way too fast and likely burn up).

Here's the reentry procedure I use with these shields:

-First, reduce your orbit to have a periapsis (lowest point) of around 75Km. So, basically just outside the atmosphere. You have a bit of wiggle room here, from 70Km (where the atmosphere ends) probably out to 125 km or so. The thing to keep in mind here, is that the further out this point is, the faster you are traveling at the opposite side of the orbit, which is where you'll be reentering.

-When you hit your new periapsis, burn retrograde (opposite your direction of oribt) until what was previously your apoapsis (highest point of your orbit), becomes your new periapsis (lowest point), and descends to around 30 Km. The altitude of this point will determine your angle of reentry, so basically how long you spend in the upper atmosphere before descending into the denser lower bits. Too low, and you'll be going too fast when you hit the lower atmosphere and likely burn up. Too high, and you'll end up exiting the atmosphere again (although probably won't happen from low orbit...this becomes more of a problem say returning from the Mun later). Again, there's wiggle room here, and I've gone in as steep as having my periapsis at this point at 20km and still survived.

-This bit is optional, based on ship design, but usually when I've descended to around 70Km (which is a handy reference point as time acceleration automatically turns off), I begin to prepare my ship for reentry. This usually consists of transferring power to any batteries and the main module I have in my reentry stage to make sure they are fully charged (I usually only put a small number of batteries on my reentry stage to give it a lifespan sufficient to make it to the ground while keeping it lite), then separate the last stage off, just leaving the bit I want to reenter behind (as an added bonus, you usually get to watch this stage burn up in the atmosphere not too far away from your ship while you reenter ;) ). I then reorient my vehicle so that the heat shield is pointed in the direction of travel, and engage SAS to keep it roughly aligned that way (and I HIGHLY recommend having SAS on a reentry vehicle). The precise orientation, and the real heat build up, shouldn't become too much of a concern until around 40Km, so you can time accelerate a bit to that point if you so desire, maybe popping out occasionally to make small adjustments to your orientation to keep it roughly inline with the direction of travel.

-Once you hit around 40Km, this is when the real test of your craft will begin. Not much you can do here other than try to keep the heat shield aligned as close to possible to your direction of travel, watch any parts that your heat shield isn't protecting burn off (like batteries or goo cannisters sticking too far out), and pray. If you make it down to around 20Km, you are probably safe, and assuming your parachutes didn't burn off, have likely survived reentry. If your craft begins to tumble out of control at some point in this, it is likely because your reentry module wasn't sufficiently bottom heavy (you have to design for this...command pods are inherently bottom heavy on their own), and you're essentially screwed.

I think that covers basic reentry fairly well. Good luck :)
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

And a few more tips:

Beyond your first reentry, once you get to the MK1-2 pod, and the associated heat shield (which, keep in mind, you have to attach yourself, it's not integrated like the mk1), I basically balanced it Apollo style so that it can survive reentry on a *direct* return from the Mun.

So, in other words, when you're on your return trip from the mun, set your periapsis, which should be the point where you are closest to Kerbin, to around 30Km, and repeat the above steps. Your apoapsis will still be out somewhere around the Mun, which means you will be going much *much* faster on reentry, but the heat shield is designed to be able to cope with that. Keep in mind here that if your periapsis is too high, you won't bleed off enough speed and will likely exit the atmosphere again heading back towards the Mun, and your batteries will be unlikely to be able to last long enough for another full orbit (I suppose you could design for that, but that would be a lot of extra weight). You could probably also burn retrograde to reduce your orbit to a low one once again to make things safer, but in that case, you're going to have to carry a ton of extra fuel with you through the whole trip to do that.

And again, I'll reemphasize something I said above about designing the reentry portion of your rocket to be bottom heavy. This is absolutely necessary, and the trickiest part of pulling this off. Make sure to use the center of gravity tool in the vehicle assembly building on just your reentry portion (detach everything else and the indicator will display where it is for just the remaining portion), and make absolutely certain it's down towards the heat shield portion. This is the main reason why I obsessed over which strut parts to include in the early tech tree BTW, as they're very useful in achieving bottom heavy designs that are still narrow enough that you can attach parts to them still covered by the shield. Also keep in mind that stuff like fuel tanks (including monopropellant) will become lighter as your mission progresses and will cause the center of gravity to shift.

And lastly, with regards to the Deadly Reentry bug that freezes the interface. One additional trick I've learned to workaround it and retain your science points for the mission if you burn up on reentry: basically, you need to switch to something already in flight in order to reactivate the interface. One way to do this is instead of returning to the space center on burn up, return to the tracking station instead. For some reason, the interface doesn't get frozen there. From there, if you can select any other craft or piece of debris laying on the ground (I've got a single nosecone that survived off of a rocket that crashed once that I use for this in my save), and then push the button to "fly" it, the interface will be reactivated and you can go on your merry way.

Again, my apologies for that bug as I know too well how big a pain in the ass it can be, having run into it an ungodly number of times while testing. It'll hopefully be taken care of in the next version of Deadly Reentry.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

Stormweaver wrote: Just bought my first T3 node; liquid fuel. The new engine available there is brilliant; even without control surfaces, the flight up is still engaging as you have to balance the engine's natural overheat, the added heat from being in that band of atmosphere that likes setting you on fire, and still getting as much thrust out of it as you can while still pointing approximately up. All three choices at the tier seemed viable; control surfaces would have let me hit 'high above kerbin' and manned flight would have gotten recovery science and crew reports.
Coming back to this: thanks man. That's what I was going for, and I made sure each of the nodes at tech 3 provide just enough science to keep going to another, and each provide distinct gameplay. This sets up the gravioli detector to basically be "required tech" to proceed to tech level 4 since that's where you'll be getting most of your science from for the next while.

With the LV-15 engine I was trying to address a number of things. Yes, keeping those early flights engaging through heat management was one. Giving it a low tech and dangerous feel was another. Eliminating the alternator early on while keeping the default LV-30 part unchanged was another. And finally making players more aware that "full throttle all the time" is not the best approach was another, which is also reinforced by Deadly Reentry.

Similarly, the LV-420, which is a low tech version of the LV-909 at the next tech level, serves a similar purpose by taking thrust vectoring out of the equation both to not muddy the usefulness of small engines for top stages with secondary functionality, and to emphasize the purpose of RCS thrusters at the same tech level, because given stack separators and a thrust vectoring engine, you can attain orbit almost as easily as with RCS.

I'm trying to keep the parts I add to an absolute minimum as they'll also serve to create confusion late in the tech tree as you'll have a bunch of low tech parts lingering in the interface otherwise, so I'm really reserving such stuff for when I see there being a clear gameplay purpose involved.

But yeah man, while it might not be immediately apparent, I've put an absolutely huge amount of thought into all this to hopefully create a more meaningful experience overall :)
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dawnraider
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by dawnraider »

So I just bought KSP. I haven't tried anything out yet, as I have had a lot of work to get done, but once I have some free time I plan on starting with BTSM, and never even bothering to play vanilla. I have absolutely no idea how anything works, so I think that will provide for an interesting experience.
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FlowerChild
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

Just a quick note: something is apparently off with the heatshield on the MK 1 command pod at present, which is making reentry next to impossible with it.

Working on that right now. I think I may have adjusted its weight after tweaking the heat shield and it made it much more difficult to reenter.
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Stormweaver
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Stormweaver »

Whoooo! Just failed my first attempt at reentry from a munar flyby.

I managed to get into a nice 120k orbit without thrust vectoring, which was fun. Actually figured out how many seconds of fuel I had left to make sure I could make it out there, managed a 12km periapsis with a free return trajectory and had enough fuel to tweak the trajectory to get it up to 30k so I wouldn't burn up. I'm really proud of it tbh.

Almost makes up for not putting any antennae on it, bugging out one of my gravioli detectors and then watching as my entire craft burned up on re-entry...other than the probe, octagonal strut and parachute.

Lesson of the day; always make sure the probe has electric charge before re-entry, just in-case your batteries explode.
PatriotBob wrote:Damn it, I'm going to go eat pumpkin pie while I still think that it tastes good.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by PatriotBob »

I'm loving the progression on the new release. With the new addition of deadly reenty, it really makes you be a lot more careful in the way you go about your missions.

And it's definitely reminding me everything I hate about the original aerodynamics model.
WHY DOES EVERY THING I MAKE WANT TO GO ASS BACKWARDS!?!?
*sigh*

Am I missing something? Even just the MkI capsule with a nice gradual entry, it just wants to flip itself upside down. I could start adding RCS tanks/thrusters to get it under control, but those would go underneath the capsule and kinda make the built in heat shield useless. I was under the impression that the MkI was, more or less, capable of reentry on it's own.
Is this just a piss poor assumption on my part?

Maybe I just need more struts...
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E.B. Farnham
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by E.B. Farnham »

I'm an old hand and KSP and I have to say you've spun gold here.

Just spent the last six hours climbing my way up the tech tree. It's exactly how I hoped the official career mode would be. Slowly worked my way up to getting a polar satellite in orbit. For someone who has launched a great many things in KSP it felt like that first time I made a stable orbit in vanilla. I felt I really had to work for it.

But nowhere near how hard I had to work to get two Goo canisters to low and high orbit and land them. That got me my Mk 1 command pod and my first manned orbit.
FlowerChild wrote:Just a quick note: something is apparently off with the heatshield on the MK 1 command pod at present, which is making reentry next to impossible with it.

Working on that right now. I think I may have adjusted its weight after tweaking the heat shield and it made it much more difficult to reenter.
I think my periapsis was about 38 km and I managed to deorbit without a fiery death. So if anyone's having trouble with it till the values are fixed, I'd aim for about 35 km periapsis from a 75 km apoapsis. Aerobraking will do the rest.

Anyway tomorrow I probe the Mun I think. Cheers for another excellent mod man.
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My two returning Goo Canisters
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Jeb returns home.
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FlowerChild
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

Shucks, thanks guys. I've really put an unreasonable amount of work into this, far more than I wanted to, and almost gave up in frustration a couple of days ago over my inability to get things the way I really wanted them (up until I made that realization about being able to tweak the science values on other planets), so it feels great to hear that people are enjoying it this much.

Anyways, thanks for making my night with the positive feedback. I'm still trying to get the reentry values just right on the Mk1 command pod, but I'll hopefully be putting out something later tonight to take care of that and a few other small tweaks I've made today.
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FlowerChild
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

PatriotBob wrote: Am I missing something? Even just the MkI capsule with a nice gradual entry, it just wants to flip itself upside down.
This I have not seen. The reaction wheels should be sufficient to keep it ass down unless you run out of electricity or have another mod like FAR installed (I heard there were problems with FAR and the Mk1 pod). On all the reentry tests I'm doing right now, I've had plenty of burn ups just due to plain old overheating, but never due to flipping.
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PatriotBob
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by PatriotBob »

FlowerChild wrote:
PatriotBob wrote: Am I missing something? Even just the MkI capsule with a nice gradual entry, it just wants to flip itself upside down.
This I have not seen. The reaction wheels should be sufficient to keep it ass down unless you run out of electricity or have another mod like FAR installed (I heard there were problems with FAR and the Mk1 pod). On all the reentry tests I'm doing right now, I've had plenty of burn ups just due to plain old overheating, but never due to flipping.
That's for the confirm, I cleaned the GameData prior. Didn't seem right to play it in a manner you didn't intend. Maybe I'll reinstall completely just to check. I generally have to spend 50 monopropellant to keep it righted between 50km and 20km. I'll dig some more.

Great job all the same!
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Psion »

Lol, I love the fluff text you have for all these shoddy parts, makes me want to unlock the next just for that. Jeb also discovered the perils of vacuum, and somehow i managed to design a rocket at tech 2 that shot off into a stable orbit... around the sun. <.<; sadly, i attached all the transmitters and the like to the lower part of the rocket, so when the lower stages exploded off, i wasn't able to get any points. (whoops)
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