Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

[Dr. Kylstein]

No it's definitely not detached as I have complete control over it. Like I said I can still throttle it up and down. Turn it off and on again. But it provides no thrust. I can see the fuel going down but it doesn't affect my orbit at all. In fact last time it happened I was in full burn right next to the previous detached stage and I wasn't moving at all relative to the detched stage. Maybe there's something wrong with my install.

Exhaust from the upper engine may have damaged your decoupler. You'd think it'd just burn away, but it sticks there absorbing all the thrust. At least, that's how it happened in 0.21. Make sure the engine firings and decouplings are in separate action groups, and let the lower stage start falling away before you trigger the engine.

[Sarudak]

Ok. I figured it out. The decoupler was backwards and was still on my craft blocking the thrust. Oddly enough even though it has a giant hole in the middle. New question. Does anyone know ho low you have to be to use the gravioli detectors on the mun?

Nvm. I figured that out too. And somehow magically crashed into kerbin while time-warped during my return... I would have had soo much science... :(

[FlowerChild]

Ok. I figured it out. The decoupler was backwards and was still on my craft blocking the thrust. Oddly enough even though it has a giant hole in the middle. New question. Does anyone know ho low you have to be to use the gravioli detectors on the mun?

Nvm. I figured that out too. And somehow magically crashed into kerbin while time-warped during my return... I would have had soo much science... :(

A question on this: are you seriously finding it more economical to return from the Mun with the detectors than transmitting the data? If so, that's likely something I need to rebalance :)

...or which will likely change when reentry is a concern.

[Mason11987]

Ok. I figured it out. The decoupler was backwards and was still on my craft blocking the thrust. Oddly enough even though it has a giant hole in the middle. New question. Does anyone know ho low you have to be to use the gravioli detectors on the mun?

Nvm. I figured that out too. And somehow magically crashed into kerbin while time-warped during my return... I would have had soo much science... :(

Yeah if you're going fast enough the time warp doesn't slow down itself, and if you crash a certain barrier in the atmosphere while over a certain time warp it can't handle it so it just blows you up.

I've had that happen a few times when I got impatient sadly.

[TheGatesofLogic]

yes, also: the opposite effect can apply at VERY high speeds and VERY high time-warps, what happens, and this is particularly noticeable when entering the influence of an object directly from the influence of Kerbol due to the speeds "acquired" when shifting from one object of influence to another, since the game calculates your velocity relative to the object of influence, is that you can move so quickly through an object that a collision doesn't even occur, just sending you back to your original orbit.

[jkievlan]

Surface, low altitude (<18 km), high altitude (>18 km), low orbit (> 70 km) & high orbit (> 250km)?

Hmm. I just put a rocket into high space using only Tech 2 (just to verify for myself that it could be done). It has a gravioli detector, a transmitter, and two batteries. Problem is, in high space it gave me the message "Gravity scan can't be done right now." And yes, I do have electric power left. Did you disable the ability to do gravity scans in high space?

EDIT: Now my rocket is under 250km and it still doesn't allow me the option to do a gravity scan. I think there's something wrong here. I don't have any mods installed except BTSM.

[FlowerChild]

As far as I can tell, the zone boundaries are slightly "fuzzy", in that you stay in them beyond the point where you enter them. You first hit high orbit around 250Km, but you have to go slightly lower than that to get out of it.

[Dale]

Please tell me if I am wrong here but I believe that I am stuck in my tech ladder with no new way of attaining science. I haven't unlocked the goo container but have unlocked the other two 45 point branches. I seem to have exhausted my science tasks...? Any tips?

[Stormweaver]

Please tell me if I am wrong here but I believe that I am stuck in my tech ladder with no new way of attaining science. I haven't unlocked the goo container but have unlocked the other two 45 point branches. I seem to have exhausted my science tasks...? Any tips?

If you have the tech for a decoupler, you could conceivably suicide burn to the Mun for a gravity scan; iirc, a full scan of one biome on the mun would be enough to get your goo. Sure, you might not have enough power to get back, or even transmit all the research; but you can keep launching them if needbe.

[FlowerChild]

Please tell me if I am wrong here but I believe that I am stuck in my tech ladder with no new way of attaining science. I haven't unlocked the goo container but have unlocked the other two 45 point branches. I seem to have exhausted my science tasks...? Any tips?

I really doubt you've exhausted the available science man. Don't forget the Gravioli Detector can be used in/over a number of different biomes if you get it into orbit, and you can also get science by recovering vessels that have survived a flight.

If you're really stuck, please post a screenshot of which nodes you've unlocked (F1 takes a screenshot) so I can take a look.

[maxsi]

so today i finally completed tech 5 using this baby on a low polar orbit on the mun(obs: don't go lower the 8k on the mun or you may hit a montain)

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note: before this mission i did not have the landing tech

btw is the mod balanced to what tech level atm?

[Larmantine]

so today i finally completed tech 5 using this baby on a low polar orbit on the mun(obs: don't go lower the 8k on the mun or you may hit a montain)

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note: before this mission i did not have the landing tech

btw is the mod balanced to what tech level atm?

Tech 5 iirc.

[jkievlan]

As far as I can tell, the zone boundaries are slightly "fuzzy", in that you stay in them beyond the point where you enter them. You first hit high orbit around 250Km, but you have to go slightly lower than that to get out of it.

Hmm well...I was well into the "high space" region. Actually, I've put several different rockets of different designs into high space, and none of them would allow me to do a high-space scan. Screenshot:

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Also, I found that if I attempt a gravity scan in high space, it doesn't allow it, and then once I'm back in low orbit the button to do the scan does not re-appear when I right-click on the gravioli meter. These are very likely vanilla issues, and as such you may not want to try fixing them, but I thought I'd let you know since you're working on balance and this would seem relevant.

That said, I haven't had any trouble advancing my tech without high-space scans, so it's not a huge worry.

[Sarudak]

Gravity scan is only in low orbit. In high orbit you can use the thermometer, barometer and goo for more science.

[FlowerChild]

Ok, I wanted to put out a brief update:

Over the course of the weekend I've been working on integrating Deadly Reentry into the tech tree, and am very happy with the results so far. This turned out to be a bit bigger job than I had anticipated, as the mod itself has basically required a balance pass to get the effect I was hoping for, and I've also been communicating with the mod maintainer trying to resolve a few issues with DR to make this as smooth as possible (he seems like a very cool guy actually).

Anyways, you can check that out here:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/thr ... ntinued-v1

Now the bad news: I can't keep doing this, at least while BTW is still wrapping up :)

The problem resides in an aspect of my personality that I've long been aware of: I am a terrible multi-tasker. I'd say one of my biggest strengths is an ability for extreme focus bordering on obsession. This is a marvelous thing for game development as it keeps me focused on a single task for the duration and I find enhances my attention to detail a great deal. BUT, it's murder for me trying to do more than one thing at a time, and I have a long trail of ex's that would probably testify to that :)

I've been slapped in the face with that yet again with this KSP thing as it's begun to dominate more and more of my time. It's not so much a problem with what I choose to sit down and work on, as much as a problem with what my mind becomes preoccupied with and is obsessing over, and basically this thing has been dominating more and more of my "design mind".

So, here's the plan: I'm going to spend today trying to wrap up what I've got into a reasonable package, release that to you guys, then put this aside to refocus on BTW. Updates to BTSM will thus likely slow to a crawl or outright stop for awhile after that while I take care of what I obviously need to be addressing at present.

I don't consider any of this time wasted or what have you, as I'm getting an increasingly clear picture of what it's like to work with Unity, which will help me make a more informed decision with regards to RTH. I just really can't let BTW linger longer than necessary because I'm excessively distracted by something else :)

[Sarudak]

I figured this might become an issue. :)

I can imagine how embarking on a completely new and open design space would draw your mind far more than working down to the bottom of your to-do list adding in bits and bobs of polish on a nearly completed masterpiece. ;)

[FlowerChild]

I figured this might become an issue. :)

I can imagine how embarking on a completely new and open design space would draw your mind far more than working down to the bottom of your to-do list adding in bits and bobs of polish on a nearly completed masterpiece. ;)

Yeah, too true, and these pesky villagers in particular are a persistent problem in terms of scope that makes it very easy to procrastinate over them.

As I've mentioned in the past, the main problem there is reigning in my desires with regards to them in order to make them manageable. They're a bit of a Pandora's box in that they can easily spiral into an extended development effort if I let them.

So, no real choice here but to buckle down and get the job done. Giving my mind outside distractions to keep it occupied is just not the right approach for me here ;)

[FlowerChild]

Oh, BTW guys, this version I'm working on is a pretty extensive rebalance with the integration of Deadly Reentry and a few other things I'm doing, so PLEASE do not expect save game compatibility with the next release.

BTSM is very much an early work in progress, so people being able to carry over saves is not something I can focus on at present.

[Taleric]

This has been a great drive in tweaking vKSP. I immediately enjoyed the sensation of just getting to the next tech.

It will be much better to come back later and tweak a more complete product. Dealing with finance, resources and available mods down the road, vice every update, has to be better for your health :P

[FlowerChild]

This has been a great drive in tweaking vKSP. I immediately enjoyed the sensation of just getting to the next tech.

Thanks man :)

Yeah, that's definitely what I'm going for, with a bit of wiggle room for player skill so that 100% science isn't required at any point.

It's a tough balancing act though, on the basis of the way the system is setup. Like, yesterday I decided to send a probe to the Mun at tech 4, put it into polar orbit with a Gravioli Detector, and beamed back enough data to buy me every node in tech 5 except 1, pretty much blowing the progression right out of the water.

At present, the system just doesn't allow for specifying science values or restricting experiments to certain celestial bodies. It's an all or nothing deal, where they seem to automatically scale up the values for places further away from Kerbin.

It will be much better to come back later and tweak a more complete product. Dealing with finance, resources and available mods down the road, vice every update, has to be better for your health :P

I dunno. I'd honestly like to keep going here, but I have to keep my priorities straight. I gotta eat and all that :)

And I really don't know with regards to the progress they're making on the title. I've mentioned it before, but it seems awfully slow to me, and I'm wondering if we're going to run into an MC situation here of everything being perpetually incomplete and in a constant state of flux.

It's a very weird game to mod though. If you take a look at the conversation I've been having with the Deadly Reentry guy, we're basically down to pure theoretical speculation on how to resolve a bug, because we don't have access to the actual code that we're basing our stuff on, so we can only take educated guesses at what's causing problems.

Working on a deobfuscated code base, like I do with BTW, is bad enough for a guy like me that is habituated to having a game's source code at his disposal, and total flexibility in changing it which ever way I choose. This is an additional layer of abstraction beyond that, that doesn't sit very well with me, and both limits the potential of what I can do, and slows down the rate at which I can do it. It both involves a lot of guess work and I'm having to jump through code hoops just to get simple tasks done.

In some ways it's unfortunate that modding is evolving in this direction. I understand the reasons for it in terms of compatibility and security, but I do find myself romanticizing the Quake 2 era of mods and the complete freedom people had back then to do pretty much anything short of mess with the engine itself.

Anyways, I guess I'm not really a modder, as much as I am a developer that took a brief foray into modding, so I don't think I'm the audience that's really being targeted with this kind of stuff.

[FlowerChild]

Ok, I just threw my hands in the air in triumph after successfully landing a mission. Been awhile since I did that :)

You guys might want to keep this design in mind with the next release:

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The parts may look different from what you're used to, as they are ;)

I think I mentioned this before, but I never really liked overriding the vanilla part stats as it means that by the end of the tech tree, you're left with stock parts which don't behave in the way you'd expect, and this kind of winds up reducing your design options at higher tech levels.

Batteries are a perfect example, in that I was previously increasing the weight of the radially placed batteries substantially, which becomes an issue later as then you're only left with lightweight inline ones.

Anyways, those odd cylinders which look like xenon canisters you see on my rocket above, and the things that look like accelerometers on the probe core, are new low-tech batteries I've added into the game to get around this problem. At present they're using stock part models, but that might be something I can address in the future. Similarly, in my part window on the left, you can see a couple of cockpits, but they aren't the vanilla MI & MII ones, but rather my own parts in both unpressurized and pressurized (but not capable of surviving in vacuum) versions for early in the tech tree.

But back to the rocket design. That's a tech 4 probe capable of surviving reentry to return the goo canisters safely back to Kerbin. I played around with many different designs, and tweaked many different things, to get to the point where I wouldn't wind up burning up on reentry before finally being able to pull it off with the above.

The key to keep in mind with the next release is that you have to design with the weight towards the bottom of your reentry stage (well, by "bottom", I mean where the heat shield is). Otherwise, once you hit the lower atmosphere, you're going to start tumbling, and fiery destruction will result.

Anyways, I'm very pleased with the results here as making Deadly Reentry a required mod has resulted in a much richer experience overall. I've spent more time on this now than I really would have liked to, but I'm very close indeed now to having something that I'll be satisfied moving on from and putting aside for now once I get it into your hands.

[icynewyear]

You're getting me closer to biting the bullet and switching over for my lp....
Is it your goal to make my channel nothing but things you've created?

[FlowerChild]

You're getting me closer to biting the bullet and switching over for my lp....
Is it your goal to make my channel nothing but things you've created?

All your LP are belong to us? :)

[Larmantine]

Marvelous! Can't wait!

I didn't play the original tech tree so I decided to give it a go. The experiment click-spamming is very annoying. As well as the fact that orbiting and flying around the lower atmosphere was rendered pretty much useless. Instead I could go to Mun and back with tech 2. Bah. Was seriously disappointed in vanilla after playing BTSM. This looks great.

Although I am a little afraid of the Deadly Reentry. But so too I was afraid of Hardcore Buckets. Fear turned into joy. Hope that this will be the same case here.

But I didn't really understand the thing with batteries, so the stock ones are present, but you made your own versions with other models?

[FlowerChild]

But I didn't really understand the thing with batteries, so the stock ones are present, but you made your own versions with other models?

Yup, to represent low-tech versions that are unlocked much earlier in the tech tree (you won't have access to the stock parts at the start anymore). I've removed the tweaks I've made to most of the stock parts so that they can be unlocked later with their vanilla stats intact. Basically the idea is that stock part statistics represent the very top of the tech tree after you've figured out how to make everything nice and lightweight

Another example is engines. The engines on the above pictured probe are LV-15s which are basically a new part I've added that resembles the LV-30 minus the alternator. The LV-30 is then unlocked later in the science branch to provide initial power generation. Another example is the first Rockomax engine unlocked later which has no thrust vectoring and overheats like crazy but outputs thrust like a mainsail.

Some parts I haven't done this with though, like probe cores, as stock has so many options already, most of them largely aesthetic, that I just rebalance the parts as needed to provide tech progression.