Saints Row 4 (ranting to people who hopefully understand)

[agentwiggles]

So, this is a little late, since SR4 came out quite some time ago, but I was browsing Polygon today, and saw there's a DLC in the pipeline. This brought the anger and myriad issues I have with SR4 to mind, and this is one of the only places on the internet where people might get my gripes about this steaming pile of a game. Though I suppose I shouldn't have been, I was absolutely stunned to see the reviews that SR4 got when it came out. 8.5/10s and 9/10s ?! Absolutely ridiculous.

I never played the original Saints Row beyond maybe an hour total of dicking around with it at a friend's house, so I can't speak too much as to the quality of that game, but my general understanding of it is that it was a fairly straightforward (if slightly wilder) GTA clone. Drive around in an open city, steal cars, get up to general mischief, etc.

Where I fell in love with the franchise was in SR2, which I logged an absolutely absurd amount of time in. SR2 is one of my favorite games of all time. In the second game, the franchise sort of discovered its own personality - still obviously comparable to GTA, but with a large dose of humor and just generally insane antics, this being especially refreshing after spending a lot of time with the way-too-full-of-itself GTA IV. The story was interesting - each of the three gangs had well-defined personalities, each having their own miniature story and plot within the game. As you fought through the missions of each gang, the stories gradually upped the ante into absolute insanity. There's numerous examples of this, but one that really stuck with me was the cutscene after you take out the Brotherhood vehicle that was dragging Carlos. That scene was genuinely emotional - the first time you played that mission there was such a sense of panic and urgency as you chased down that car, and to get to the end of that mission and still lose him... man, that hit hard.

And Saints Row 2 had way more going for it than the story missions. All of the side activities were a blast - but not required whatsoever to progress through the main game. You were doing that shit because it was fucking fun and you wanted to do it. The main missions focused on the driving and shooting gameplay, leaving the wacky shit like Mayhem and Insurance Fraud to the side missions. Customization was also really well done - there were tons of clothes, you could get really detailed with the faces (I spent about 2 hours with a picture of myself, getting a startlingly accurate character, only to have the game crash and lose it... D: ). Saints Row 2 took the first game and polished the shit out of it, and the result was gold. The fact that you could play literally the entire game with a friend, from story and side missions to just roaming around causing havoc, was the icing on the cake. Long story short - I fucking loved SR2.

Fast forward to Saints Row 3, which, given my love of its predecessor, was a pants-wettening prospect. This was the beginning of a horrific downward slide. Though the game, on the surface, seemed to have a lot to offer compared to SR2, the reality was... disappointing. The game wasn't terrible, not by any means, but it just didn't have the same soul that the 2nd game had. The story was pretty meh - there wasn't really any distinction between gangs, nothing BIG ever happened. I mean fuck, after the thing with the Brotherhood I mentioned above, I was on the fucking warpath. There was so much satisfaction in taking out those assholes who'd killed my friend, and the way that everything kept escalating just made it more and more compelling. In SR3, you start off as these total badasses, there was no feeling of working your way up from nothing to the most powerful gang in the city. The progression, as a result, was fucked - you got a drone weapon as a reward for like the second mission.

Even disregarding the story, which admittedly isn't the most important component of a game like this, the game failed to live up to SR2. SR2 was over the top, but in a good way, a way that let you run wild around the city but still made you work for the privilege. Someone in charge must have thought that the "over the top-ness" was what had made the second game so good, and so lots of dev time was devoted to these big, spectacular sequences (like the whole cyber-world thing.) But in focusing on pushing the game into even crazier territory, they left the charm of SR2 behind. It showed too, in the areas of the game that weren't as obvious and near the surface. Somehow, there were LESS (LESS?!) customization options for your characters than before. Even the car customization took a hit. Combat lost any semblance of variation (admittedly it wasn't anything amazing before, but it got decidedly worse.) The new city wasn't as much fun to explore. And, insult of all insults, the side missions were crammed into the main campaign - which, even with this desperate padding, was short. The game was hollow, shallow. Lame. (Also, they took out 40s and blunts? What the fuck? :P )

So when SR4 came out, I didn't buy it. I wasn't excited. I didn't have high expectations. The devs were catering to mass audiences. Whatever.

But my roommate did buy it. So I said fuck it, borrowed the disc for a night, and played a few hours.

Saints Row 4 is fucking garbage.

I have so many beefs with SR4 that it's hard to pick a place to start. First, just to get this out of the way: nearly every complaint I had about SR3 vs. SR2 is still present and in most cases worse than before. There were a couple good moves - customization is slightly deeper, etc, but by and large the problems weren't addressed. SR4 is like SR2's retarded little brother - looking up to an ideal, imitating his actions, but never really understanding WHY it's doing what it's doing. Or like Sloth in a ballet - amusing for a moment, but eventually you're gonna get sick of the big idiot lumbering around and crashing into the set.

The game is just boring as shit, easy, lacking challenge. The story is incredibly stupid, ridiculous even by the standards of this franchise. You're given superpowers - yes, superpowers, like running really fast, climbing walls, jumping really high, etc.

I hear you say: "Oh cool! Open city, run around, destroy shit with superpowers! Tapping into that Crackdown vibe!" But it doesn't come together. The superpowered main character de facto defeats the purpose of half of the things you might want to do in Saints Row. Did you like finding a fast car, customizing it, taking it out and wrecking it? Well, there's no reason whatsoever to ever even enter a car, since you run faster than them. Did you like grabbing a helicopter from the airport and checking out the tops of tall buildings? No need for that now, just run up the wall. Did you enjoy recruiting a crew and taking down enemy gang members? Did you ever have to run away because you didn't have the firepower to take on that big a group? Don't worry, you're goddamn Superman and you can just do quick melee kills (of which there are somehow LESS distinct moves than SR3).

The people who made SR4 had no understanding of why SR2 was well received, and it shows. Baffling design decisions across the board (in both SR4 and its predecessor) came to a disgusting head in a game that simply does not know what it's supposed to be doing. This post has gotten WAAAAAY longer than expected so I'll stop here. If anyone takes the time to read this book I just posted, let me know your opinions.

tl;dr version: SR2 > SR3 > dog shit > SR4, and that makes AgentWiggles angry and sad.

[Shinxy]

Largely agree, though I'd that SR3/4 aren't bad in and of themselves. On their own merits, they're alright, definitely a 6/10, fun in their own rights. That being said, I deeply despise both of them when compared to something as fantastic as SR2 which is easily one of my all-time favorite games in the sandbox genre. It struck that right chord of serious and wacky, of salty and sweet like a well fashioned salted caramel. The latter games were just buckets of sugar, and having a bowl of fruity loops right after a prime-rib steak is inexcusable. A similar thing can be said about the combat/transportation, but you've already provided a big chunk as to why it blows compared to SR2.

[VegasGoat]

That's quite a rant. I actually did read the whole thing because I played a little of SR2 (bought a used copy for PS3 a while back) and a little of SR3 (got free with PS+) and didn't stick with either. You've inspired me to go back and give SR2 a chance, at least.

I agree with your overall theme, I think. It seems like BTW draws people who need more out of gaming than just a sandbox to play in. I need a progression, to feel like I'm working towards something and conquering some challenges set before me. You're right about that drone strike weapon in SR3, it shouldn't come so early in the game like that. They definitely seem to have taken the wrong path for SR3 & 4, adding ridiculous content without considering how it affects the gameplay.

[Wafflewaffle]

I can give you a different perspective. From someone that never played SR2 (but have it on my steam library) and went straight from GTA IV to SR3, its a pretty damn funny game. SR3 may never live up to its predecessor but hardly any games do nowadays (darksiders, simcity, crackdown, every COD after 4, the list goes on). It stands as a game of its own, being goofy and all, and i had a great time with it. BUT SR3 was a product of a company whose owner was going into bankruptcy and SR4 was "developed" from the get go as a last cash grab for the dying THQ. If you remember SR4 was going to be a DLC for SR3 called "Enter the Dominatrix" and then a new CEO stepped in the order it to become a full fledged game to increase the value of the franchise to encourage share holders not to sell their shit before they auction all of THQ assets.

This is a situation where Money influenced the WHOLE game not just part of it. My advice? Play GTA V! Its awesome!

[FlowerChild]

Yeah, I haven't played 4 but I had some serious issues with the design of SR3 and I can definitely see where you're coming from. I also haven't felt compelled to play 4, as even from the reviews I read, the whole superpower thing really turns me off.

The one that really got to me in SR3 is how gameplay obsolescence was built into the character upgrades. By the time you complete the game, combat can easily become trivial. I know I got super pissed off when without thinking about it, I purchased an upgrade that basically made me immune to gunfire, making the missions I had left to complete in the game wholly irrelevant and downright dull.

While I loved SR1, I didn't play much SR2. I think I rented it shortly after playing through GTA IV and the vehicle physics felt so "bubble gum" by comparison that I just couldn't get into it. While I know many people didn't dig them I think the vehicle physics were one of the things I loved most about GTA IV, and I clocked countless hours in online races with that game as a result. I've got SR2 in my Steam library though, so given the praise it's getting above, I may check it out again at some point.

Unfortunately, I don't have access to a console at present so GTA V remains frustratingly out of reach :)

[agentwiggles]

Though I will always have a place in my heart for Saints Row 2, and I maintain the opinion that it's a fun, well designed game, I have to make the disclaimer that my high opinion of it does have a lot to do with nostalgia and for the countless hours my best friend and I spent dicking off in the game. I don't know if it would have quite the same brilliance if I hadn't had a buddy to play it with.

That said, if you haven't played much of it, I'd definitely recommend it, especially if you liked the first one. You may not get the replay value out of it that I did but the game itself still holds up and the experience is worthwhile.

Oh, and on the note of GTA V - I'm too broke at the moment to purchase a copy, but the 2-3 hrs I got to play last time I was home for a weekend were excellent. Definitely will be playing more of that when I get the chance.

I've been too spoiled by Steam sales and Humble Bundles since my PC became my primary gaming device, and $60 + tax just seems soooo expensive for a video game to me now... :(

[Wafflewaffle]

Try 200,00 Reais here in Brazil... kinda like 90,00 dollars...

[DaveYanakov]

Unfortunatly Volition farmed out the PC port for SR2, a mistake they have never made again thankfully. It is borderline unplayable.

I actually have had a blast playing through 4. You get superpowers but you also have challenges designed with those powers in mind. The missions where you lose those powers do feel a bit arbitrary but they do the job of breaking up the pacing of the game rather splendidly.

There are some really nice touches, like hiring Nolan North and then telling him to play himself rather than Saints Leader voice option #4. The gameplay context (not story) was almost entirely crafted out of pop culture callbacks targeted for the 25-40 demographic and the way it was handled allowed them to take the piss out of a massive slice of media in general. As a side bonus, they basically kicked to the curb all the myriad inconveniences from SR3. It was good enough that I cleared the city on my first playthrough and started a second character within a couple days.

Just a quick question but I am assuming that you were not playing on hard difficulty, wiggles. If you tried to spam those superman takedowns in a fight against more than two or three enemies at a time on the higher difficulties you would have been shredded. Even with the superpowers there is a lot of redscreen if you slip up.

[agentwiggles]

I have to admit that I watched Angry Joe's review of SR4 after my initial post and I feel like I missed out on quite a bit for not sticking with the game longer. I stand by a lot of my complaints, but after seeing him talk about the whole game, not just the initial 5-7 hrs I played, it may not have been quite as bad as my initial impression suggested, and while I'm inclined to stick with my own impressions from playing it, I miiiight be willing to switch its place with SR3 in the inequality in that first post.

On the note of the pop culture references - I just didn't find that aspect that impressive. It's the same reason I despise the Big Bang Theory - it just feels like soulless, heavy-handed pandering to me. In Big Bang Theory it's "HEY YOU ARE A NERD YOU LIKE NERD THINGS SCIENCE STAR TREK BLAAARGH," and in SR4 it's "HEY YOU ARE A GAMER REMEMBER METAL GEAR REMEMBER CALL OF DUTY THAT WAS COOL WASNT IT HERE HAVE MORE"

Zero Punctuation says it better than I can - there's a difference between parody and just doing things that other things do.

[DaveYanakov]

The thing Yahtzee was talking about was just putting a Halo helmet on a shelf that you have to walk past. Volition makes it part of the gameplay. It's the difference between writing something to sell it to a target and writing it because you're having a blast making the last game of a series and don't want to leave anything out.

You actually got me to pick it back up for a couple hours as I never uninstalled it and I was reminded of everything I loved about it. Even the thing about cas being useless when you can sprint faster than them isn't really valid until the final act of the game. The limit on the sprint duration results in it taking much longer if you run rather than drive to objectives further than a block or two away. I will agree that if you went into the game expecting Grand Theft Auto style action rather than Prototype you would be disappointed. I found the game to be quite well designed for what it was.

[Azdoine]

Out of curiosity, what is the appeal to games like Saints Row & GTA? All I know about them is that there's over-the-top levels of violence & adult content, but I assume there must be something more to it, right?

[TheGreatIntelligence]

Out of curiosity, what is the appeal to games like Saints Row & GTA? All I know about them is that there's over-the-top levels of violence & adult content, but I assume there must be something more to it, right?

Depends on the game.
Saint's Row:Giant Purple Dildo Bats, weird-ass weapons, weird-ass vehicles, explosions, f**king sh*t up, being a douche to civilians, f**king your coworkers(Saint's Row 4 only)
GTA:Carjacking, being a criminal, driving recklessly, mugging, hookers, mugging hookers, strip clubs, general misconduct.

Depends on whether you want to beat people senseless with dildos or just cause a general ruckus.

[FlowerChild]

Out of curiosity, what is the appeal to games like Saints Row & GTA? All I know about them is that there's over-the-top levels of violence & adult content, but I assume there must be something more to it, right?

Open world craziness. Similar to MC in that way.

The point isn't the violence, so much as the violence is available to you should you choose to go nuts with it, which everyone inevitably does :)

[Kazuya Mishima]

While I know many people didn't dig them I think the vehicle physics were one of the things I loved most about GTA IV,

Vehicle physics have been dumed down massively in GTA V. Cars come to a complete stop from maximum speed in about a second, wrecks that should be catastrophic do not do enough damage to the vehicle to cripple it, motorcycle physics feel terrible and overly responsive. It's really unfortunate what they did as maintaining stability of a vehicle during a pursuit is a simple matter in GTA V now and there is no feeling of risk vs reward when you approach high speeds.

The bizarre thing about driving in GTA V is that is it so inconsistent with the rest of the game. The shooting itself is dangerous and requires skill and quick reflexes to survive contact but when you get in a car you become all but invincible. I think Rockstar had the individuals that worked on Midnight Club develop the driving portion of the game and it shows, it's very arcady.

Actually i couldn't help but think about your criticism of vMC and the direction its' taken when i first started operating the vehicles in V.

[FlowerChild]

Vehicle physics have been dumed down massively in GTA V. Cars come to a complete stop from maximum speed in about a second, wrecks that should be catastrophic do not do enough damage to the vehicle to cripple it, motorcycle physics feel terrible and overly responsive. It's really unfortunate what they did as maintaining stability of a vehicle during a pursuit is a simple matter in GTA V now and there is no feeling of risk vs reward when you approach high speeds.

ARG! You're not fucking serious?

Gods damn it, there goes a lot of my incentive for playing GTA V. I guess all the people bitching about driving being too hard in GTA IV caused them to change it. That's super annoying man, as I found the physics to be so good that I'd have zero issue if they had simply ported them from IV to V :\

<pours one on the curb for GTA Race: one of my favorite multiplayer modes ever>

EDIT: Fuck man, that really pisses me off. I even remember when IV came out, one of the observations I made is how they seemed to be practicing incremental development similar to what they had done with the GTA III series (GTA III, Vice City, San Andreas) where they slowly improved upon the same engine with each game until San Andreas was a total looney blow-out using everything they had developed previously.

With GTA IV, it occurred to me that they had obviously scaled down their overall effort from San Andreas with a smaller world with more limited interaction so they could focus on developing their engine, and one of the things they decided to do was put a huge amount of work into the vehicle physics. I thus thought that was likely one of their main design goals with IV, and would continue to be used for the next few games to come.

Christ...it's is seriously disappointing to me that they seemed to cave to public pressure and dumb it down again to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

<pours another one on the curb for the overall dumbing down of games in general>

[Kazuya Mishima]

I would say the rest of the game is amazing. The shooting feels is on the caliber of Red Dead Redemption. The city is astonishingly beautiful and the pursuits can be fun but the feel very very easy as vehicles have way to much control.

There seems to be a lot of division on this issue at http://gtaforums.com/topic/594946-the-driving-debate/ . I do get the impression that the mass market of casual or unsophisticated gamers are the satisfied party in this outcome.

If there is any hope it's that the PC modding community will be able to resolve this and emulate GTA IV's car physics. It's my impression that you will have to also address the cop AI at the same time if you do alter the driving. Cops in GTA V are much more aggressive to offset the miraculous handling cars can perform and will employ suicidal ramming techniques against you even at 2 stars.

[FlowerChild]

Yeah, just reading through that thread, I can tell that I'd absolutely hate it.

I put maybe 40+ hours into the main game in GTA IV, and literally *hundreds* of hours into multiplayer GTA Race. I used to say it was the closest I ever came to playing Car Wars in a video game.

A big part of why that was so much fun and compelling was that the driving physics, while not entirely realistic, were so hugely skill based that every single race was different, and every single race was determined largely on the basis of player skill. By the end I was playing most of the time on bikes, which was also a huge testament to skill given how fragile they were and how easily you could be shot off of them.

Another multiplayer mode I frigging loved (I didn't play it as extensively but that was largely because there weren't as many players for it online) was included with the Lost and The Damned expansion, and involved one team playing the cops trying to transport prisoners across the map in a school bus with surrounding police car escorts, and the other team being the bike gang trying to kill the NPC "witnesses" on the bus. With that one, I used to say that it was the closest I had ever come to the final scene of The Road Warrior in a video game, and once again, it was largely interesting because of the vehicle handling and the extreme craziness that ensued that you'd have to deal with on the fly.

Anyways, it's a bit of a tragedy in my mind that they would sacrifice such depth for the sake of the whining masses.

[DaveYanakov]

I also reinstalled GTA IV due to this thread and I think I could be quite happy playing through it as they got so much of it right. The one thing that absolutely kills it is the mandatory reacharound missions. I was doing ok mostly ignoring them right up to the point where I was on a mission to rescue the idiot cousin who was being held hostage. As I'm enroute, my phone goes off and that same idiot cousin asks me if I want to drop everything and go shoot some pool with him instead. Bastard dropped my approval rating when I decided to keep him alive instead.

If anyone knows of a mod that just, y'know, kills that aspect of the game? That would be super helpful.

[FaceFoiled]

I'm a big fan of Saints Row myself, and fucking love all of them, including 3 and 4. :P If you want story, play GTA. The story is still fun in SR, but the whole thing is about being "over the top". That is what defines the game, and the great thing is that they pull it off amazingly well.

You mentioned "the game is lacking challenge". Well, that is somewhat true, but again, that is what defines SR. The further you get into it, the more overpowered you get which adds to the fun. Why just shoot someone, when you can squash them by throwing vehicles onto them instead? :P

It's still largely a sandbox game. The game is as fun as you make it for yourself.

[agentwiggles]

the whole thing is about being "over the top"

Not to sound like a prick, but if that's what you think we obviously don't have the same view of the franchise. As I mentioned in my initial post, pretty much everything I find wrong with the second two games stems from the designers (or corporate honchos) not realizing that being "over the top" wasn't the only thing that made the second game so great. Losing focus on everything else for the sake of pushing the "over the top" stuff is, in my opinion, where this franchise derailed so catastrophically.

*shrug* for differing opinions