Vanilla Minecraft News Discussion

[Stormweaver]

A ton of features recently have most likely been requested by prominent minecraft LPers.

Several times there have been tweets confirming as much. In fact the mindcrack guys are working on their nether hub now and I am sure they were bellyaching about the portal constraints.

Problem with LPers driving the demand for additions is anything new is great regardless of function. Adding gameplay value is largely irrelivent to them as they just need to quickly make videos with stuff that looks neat. Really anything that makes the game anymore difficult only slows their production process so I am sure they would cry.

Yeah, lots of this.

As an example, I watched a fair few of the mindcrack guy's FTB LPs before they seemed to collective get bored and leave - every episode was either "look at this new thing you haven't seen" or somewhat boring. The pack's success in the youtube arena's likely due to the sheer amount of 'OMG NEW!!!!' they can cram in each episode.

[FlowerChild]

I think it's pretty apparent from my conversation with him just now that Dinnerbone was totally clueless about constraints playing a crucial role in MC's design (particularly his "should I start ripping out blocks?" response). Given the community's focus on "Minecraft is about absolute freedom!" (which is total hogwash of course), that doesn't really surprise me.

Who knows, while I doubt it, maybe he will have learned something from the exchange.

[Tekei]

[...]Who knows, while I doubt it, maybe he will have learned something from the exchange.

I just read said conversation on Twitter and I certainly hope so...
Either way, after reading that I am happier than ever to be part of the BTW community! :)

[woeuntoyou]

"Minecraft is about absolute freedom!"

And to think Minecraft was inspired by Dwarf Fortress.

[FlowerChild]

I just read said conversation on Twitter and I certainly hope so...
Either way, after reading that I am happier than ever to be part of the BTW community! :)

Thanks man :)

I've been pondering the nature of Minecraft and what makes it fun at an almost philosophical level for about three years straight now, given it represented something I had never seen before in games, and given my overall obsession with game design. I've learned many things, and made many mistakes along the way. It's like I've said before with regards to RTH: it's my opportunity to take everything I've learned with BTW and MC, start from scratch, and do it for real this time with BTW just having been "my practice run".

What makes MC fun is an incredibly deep topic. The design was either total serendipity, total genius, or rests somewhere between the two.

When I see people thus pop up and say "It's all about freedom!" or some other surface level hogwash, or even worse, see them act based on that assumption, it's a huge fucking face palm for me as a result. I could write a fucking book on the topic of MC's design (and if all my various posts were assembled it would probably add up to one), and have spent enough time seriously contemplating it to add up to a Bachelor's degree, so to see it reduced to such banal statements just comes across as utterly ridiculous to me.

What's funny too is that I think more often than not it just causes many people to write off what I say as nonsensical rambling. With the possible exception of Notch, I doubt there is anyone out there that has seriously thought about MC as much as I have, and thus I suspect my thought process often comes across as almost alien to some :)

[FlowerChild]

An addendum to the above: I often look back on some of my earlier design decisions in BTW now like I was a bull in a china shop. Some of you may have noticed that the content I've been working on the past six months to a year is far more subtle, and generally has far greater impact on the gameplay experience than a lot of the flashier features I used to work on back then, some of which I've actually come to deeply regret with time.

Doubly funny is the fact that even stuff that I did back then, like the Hopper or BD, are far more balanced and fit the game better than similar features that have been added to MC as of late.

Anyways, just to emphasize the point that I have learned a hell of a lot along the way, and how it really is a complex topic even for someone with my previous design experience. As I mentioned in one of my tweets, I think that's the very thing that has kept me interested for as long as it has, and why even now that I have spent so long on it, I would feel compelled to go on and develop a whole other game in a similar vein.

[DaveYanakov]

Personally I'm glad you made the hopper long before Mojang added anything remotely similar. I can see you trying to adapt a vanilla addition to do the same job to avoid being that bull in the china shop and it makes my empathy clench.

[FlowerChild]

Personally I'm glad you made the hopper long before Mojang added anything remotely similar. I can see you trying to adapt a vanilla addition to do the same job to avoid being that bull in the china shop and it makes my empathy clench.

Honestly, I don't think I would have started modding MC in the first place if the current crew was in charge. I think a large part of why I decided to do so revolved around how much I respected Notch and his design ability, which was why I was willing to base so much of my own work on it. Yes, I disagreed with wolves (and a handful of features that followed), but I think there was a large degree of "dude! you're losing your way" in that whole thing.

As we saw the past while, I tried to accommodate the new features for awhile like I used to do with the old ones, and at a certain point just busted out the axe and started swinging. In retrospect, my splitting from vanilla like that was probably one of the best decisions I've made, because I can't even imagine what BTW would be now if I had tried to conform to its current development direction (or lack thereof).

The current situation is similar to what I'd imagine it would be if BTW suddenly became dependent on some random other modder in the MC community, and I felt compelled to adapt my work to that. I think you guys all know I'd never allow that to happen, with BTW being as conceptually compatible with vanilla right now as it is with many Forge mods.

[johnt]

Well, I think it's important to separate Minecraft: The Engine, from Minecraft: The Game.

The appeal of the minecraft engine is indeed 'freedom'. It gives players and modders a tremendous amount of leeway to play the game however they want to play it -- anything from legos, to RPG:like experiences with adventure maps, to the 'survival:lite' experience of the basic game to really well thought out total conversions like BTW and Thaumcraft and Terra Firmacraft to the power-fantasy modpacks. I think a lot of the 'improvements' that they've made specifically for modders and adventure map creators are good in that respect, since they give more options for people to be creative with the engine, which is wonderful, IMO.

As far as designing the game, though, it's been one terrible decision after another, as has been discussed ad nauseum here.

[FlowerChild]

On the engine side, all I have to say is "Mod API".

The last time they did anything significant for modders was 1.3 with the SSP/SMP merger, and we're all aware of what a botched attempt that was, largely integrating all the problems of SMP into SSP.

2 years and counting now on the API, that's specifically what the new guys were hired for, and really: we have squat.

[johnt]

Considering that they're currently sitting on something like half a billion dollars in cash (after taxes), I'm wondering what they're doing with all the money if it's not hiring programmers.

[devak]

Considering that they're currently sitting on something like half a billion dollars in cash (after taxes), I'm wondering what they're doing with all the money if it's not hiring programmers.

Well notch stopped paying attention at what groceries cost.


Anyway, Flowerchild, i think you would probably need to sit down with Dinnerbone and talk design for a couple of hours to make any meaningful impact. I don't think he truly understands what you're talking about.

[Rob]

Anyway, Flowerchild, i think you would probably need to sit down with Dinnerbone and talk design for a couple of hours to make any meaningful impact. I don't think he truly understands what you're talking about.

I believe any "talks" with the current development staff would be in vain. They are milking the cash cow. I doubt design integrity was ever a desire. They won't do anything to jeopardize the influx of the gimme-gimme kids with their parent's credit cards. They will do what is easy and pleases the LPers since the LPers are what promote their game to the coddled masses.

[SterlingRed]

I believe any "talks" with the current development staff would be in vain. They are milking the cash cow. I doubt design integrity was ever a desire. They won't do anything to jeopardize the influx of the gimme-gimme kids with their parent's credit cards. They will do what is easy and pleases the LPers since the LPers are what promote their game to the coddled masses.

I'd be cautious to say the reason for minecrafts lack of development cohesiveness and direction is solely from money and "coddling masses". I think that's more of a symptom and not the real problem. Fc has posted on it before, the current development team has a lack of experience in game design and perhaps game design may not be the best fit for some of their individual talents. Several of them are great programmers, but great programmers do not automatically make great game designers. That is the problem with minecrafts team at its core, a lack of a game designer giving it a direction and cohesive vision. As a result, you have a collection of programmers who don't know what they want the game to be, who don't understand what about it makes it fun, and who have also been thrown under the pressure of an enormous fan base. So they add the popular requests and tweak things for the "ooh shiny" effect. Not so much because they want to milk the baby players for all their parents cash, but because there is no game developer and they don't know what else to do. Minecraft as it is now, is what happens when you take a brilliant base product, and hand it off to employees without a leader.

[Husbag3]

After watching Doc's video on the new portals I really think that Mojang have no concern for balance at all. Portals can be up to 23x23 and be placed adjacently. It'd be nice to be able to have a portal that matches the symmetry of other things in your minecraft world but the scale is rather over the top in my opinion

[Rob]

*Snipped lots of stuff that made me feel like a Knee-Jerk-Flame-Mojang Hipster.*

I feel all sorts of silly now. The bash was out of character for myself. You are correct, Sir.

After watching Doc's video on the new portals I really think that Mojang have no concern for balance at all. Portals can be up to 23x23 and be placed adjacently. It'd be nice to be able to have a portal that matches the symmetry of other things in your minecraft world but the scale is rather over the top in my opinion

Portal size doesn't effect balance, it's just aesthetic fluff. The LPers I follow made mention of wanting an odd width portal to fit their builds. Which I can kind of understand, being aesthetic minded as well. The standard 3x2 plus a new 2x3 or 3x3 would have been sufficient. Dinnerbone just ran with it, ran with it like Forest Gump. Run, Dinnerbone, Run.

[FlowerChild]

Portal size doesn't effect balance, it's just aesthetic fluff.

I strongly disagree and have gone on about why at length now :)

In a game that largely revolves around building, building constraints can hardly be considered fluff, or not related to the gameplay balance.

The LPers in question could have designed their building to accommodate those constraints just like the rest of us have always done. Instead, they got the game to be changed so they wouldn't have to deal with designing within the rules of the game. It's just sad.

Considering that MC is rather lacking in building design constraints to begin with, removing one of the few that remains is a particularly bad move IMO.

[Rob]

Portal size doesn't effect balance, it's just aesthetic fluff.

I strongly disagree and have gone on about why at length now :)

In a game that largely revolves around building, building constraints can hardly be considered fluff, or not related to the gameplay balance.

I understand your Lego to clay analogy. My view on it is that regardless of how big it is, it still functions as a gateway to the Nether. I guess, being able to enter from multiple heights is the balance issue?

Edit: I think my "Pfft, who cares." attitude is because if I ever built a large portal, I'd still only enter it from the bottom. Because, Stargate Ermergerd! lol

[FlowerChild]

I understand your Lego to clay analogy. My view on it is that regardless of how big it is, it still functions as a gateway to the Nether. I guess, being able to enter from multiple heights is the balance issue?

No, no longer having to design the surrounding structure around an even width portal is the issue, which is also what they were trying to get around.

IMO, this lead to people making use of double doors and architectural styles they might not have experimented with otherwise (I know it did for me on multiple occasions). It took players out of their building comfort zone of leaning towards odd-width buildings and inspired them to try something new. Given you're dealing with a portal to hell, I think it's also thematically appropriate having to deal with building around something slightly odd in the process. In other words, it was a building design constraint which motivated player creativity rather than stifle it as has been largely portrayed by proponents of the change.

It's on a smaller scale (or larger depending how you look on it), but it's similar to the thing with Gear Boxes requiring an Axle between them instead of powering each other directly. It's an inconvenience that motivates players to think outside of the box, and thus becomes an aspect of gameplay.

I say "smaller scale" because it obviously is not as significant to gameplay. I say potentially larger, because vanilla has far fewer of those kinds of design constraints than BTW, so the loss of one is far more noticeable.

[Rob]

No, no longer having to design the surrounding structure around an even width portal is the issue, which is also what they were trying to get around.

IMO, this lead to people making use of double doors and architectural styles they might not have experimented with otherwise (I know it did for me on multiple occasions). It took players out of their building comfort zone of leaning towards odd-width buildings and inspired them to try something new. Given you're dealing with a portal to hell, I think it's also thematically appropriate having to deal with building around something slightly odd in the process. In other words, it was a building design constraint which motivated player creativity rather than stifle it as has been largely portrayed by its proponents.

It's on a smaller scale (or larger depending how you look on it), but it's similar to the thing with Gear Boxes requiring an Axle between them instead of powering each other directly. It's an inconvenience that motivates players to think outside of the box, and thus becomes an aspect of gameplay.

I say "smaller scale" because it obviously is not as significant to gameplay. I say potentially larger, because vanilla has far fewer of those kinds of design constraints than BTW, so the loss of one is far more noticeable.

That's why you are the Conversion Creator, and I, the mere minion enjoying the fruits of your labor. Makes perfect sense when you spell it out. I know you've been beating this horse for a while. Sorry to make you hit it again.

[FlowerChild]

That's why you are the Conversion Creator, and I, the mere minion enjoying the fruits of your labor. Makes perfect sense when you spell it out. I know you've been beating this horse for a while. Sorry to make you hit it again.

Oh, no problem man. Given the character limit on twitter it's rather difficult to explain things in a coherent manner.

It's fine for reporting on your bowel movements, but tends to fail rather miserable when you're trying to explain something even moderately complex. I should probably just drop it entirely.

[Rob]

I should probably just drop it entirely.

But who else would White Knight our needs as proper Gamers? Who knows, they might be listening. Keep on keeping on, Flowerchild.

[FlowerChild]

But who else would White Knight our needs as proper Gamers? Who knows, they might be listening. Keep on keeping on, Flowerchild.

Bah. I'm hardly a white knight. More a grumpy old man yelling at the kids to get off his lawn :)

They don't understand what I'm going on about, and it's only likely to get my house toilet papered down the road.

[Rob]

Bah. I'm hardly a white knight. More a grumpy old man yelling at the kids to get off his lawn :)

You're my White Knight, Flowerchild. So dreamy. lol.

[MrLemon]

I find it a bit odd everyone directly blaming Lpers for this change. Dinnerbone was talking about wanting improved portal physics back when they let animals into the Nether. Not saying they did or didn't have anything to do with this change, but blaming them seems odd given Jeb and Dinnerbone's incompetence designing features on their own.