Hardcore Spawn is finished

[Heilkaiba]

My first reaction to the update was definitely negative but something I realised after a little thought is that the problem I have with HC spawn is that it gets in the way of my current goals in my world. The real epiphany is that BTW shifts the focus of MC especially in the early game more towards survival and that I should change my goals to reflect that. At the moment I don't have much time to play BTW especially with the steam summer sale in full swing and so many other games to play but when I'm a bit more free I think I will definitely start a new fully hardcore world and get stuck in. Many thanks Flower and I definitely support this decision.

[Mason11987]

I haven't yet had a chance to use the piles, but I was really dissapointed with the response in the release thread. When you had mentioned the team mechanic it also nagged at me that it was weird to go that way. Since I haven't used the piles yet I haven't found out how you resolved the problem of playing together and also making death matter but I'm glad that you did it in a way that seems right to you. I never understood the "I don't like cheating in my games, so I want the games to cheat for me". If you don't like the rules break them, no one is going to stop you, there are a dozen options to do so, but don't expect the rules to conform to you.

I was surprised at how little obvious banning went on in the release thread to be honest. Seems like straight up Rule #1 + Rule #3 to me.

[Rob]

First I want to thank PatriotBob, for starting this thread up. I wanted to do the same (I was in the process of gathering my thoughts for a post in the release thread when it was closed.), but felt my post count was not high enough to warrant opening this can of worms back up.

FC, you make the tough decisions, and for that, this community is a stronger group of gamers. Or so I thought, until big named board members went into tantrum mode, and made new accounts to protest, because that's what adults do.

The argument against is just silly. "My girlfriend." How hard is it as the OP, to /loc when you start the map, write it down, and then teleport your bad-at-btw significant other to that spot when she/he dies a million and one times. And you should thank FC for making that slash command for you. Ever thought your girlfriend is bad because you coddle her with turning off the death penalty? There is no incentive to get better because her boyfriend will save the day? Except, that can still be so, just /tp her, now you look like a wizard because you used OP code. Or you could just,... not update your BTW version. *Mind Blown*

In short, you're an adult, grow up and act like one.

FC, you have a great Total Conversion here. Your vision has never steered us wrong before. It's a shame that a release thread had to be locked because of this nonsense.(Has that ever happened before?)

I for one, look forward to the day the config file is removed completely. I'll go out on a limb and claim the majority of us never use it anyway.

Next option to get the axe? Hardcore Buckets please. Time to separate the coddled masses from the real gamers. :P

[jkievlan]

Personally I think the solution to co-op HCS (soul said piles) is AWESOME :) People keep getting mad at me on my server because I absolutely refuse to op them or use /tp magic, and with HCS they think I ought to have pity on them. Now they have a way to handle the situation, if they can just get to the nether.

Of course, that won't help certain individuals who just run around in a panic every time they die and then die over and over again because they won't learn how to think and be careful...but I don't think I want players like that on my server anyway, so it's all good :)

[Battlecat]

I've been preparing my server members for this change ever since Flowerchild mentioned he'd like to eliminate all remaining optional modes in the game. There was some apprehension but I did tell them that there would be built in solutions. I'm really looking forward to updating the server with all the hardcore modes active and finding out how the soul sand tracking system works.

We'll be doing a soft restart (moving original spawn 10k blocks away so we can eventually go home) and recording the results which should be no end of amusement. To be honest, I've been procrastinating on starting the recording attempt with my friends in anticipation of these changes, I'm very glad I waited.

Please keep up the great work!

[Lars]

I think it's great that HC spawning is now non optional. It forces me to man up and stop being a pussy. I also think the soulsand tracking thingy is pretty interesting. Yes, it is a shame that you need to be pretty far advanced to have acces to it, but I think it also forces you to be extra extra damn carefull in the early game. The mechanic itself I find very promising as well. As I understand it, it will require a searchparty to go and retrieve the person that died. This will give everyone that extra incentive to not die, because you don't want to force your friends to go and look for you all the damn time. Great job FC, thanks for all your effort!
And man, here's a little word of advice from me: (might not be worth jack shit to you, but what the hell :P) out of a 100 updates you have done to this mod, 99 were devoured by your fanbase like sweet drippy baconstrips. I understand it's a bummer to see some negativity in your release thread after you put so much effort into something you are very proud of yourself, but damn man, that is one impressive track record. So screw that, we will realise in time how awesome this new feature is, and hang our heads in shame. I trust without doubt that you will have the last laugh. Don't let it get to you now!
Anyway, again a big thank you to you FC. I finally have that LAN party planned, and I will force my friends to play BTW MC. I'm sure we'll have a blast! =D

[Marasambala]

I wanted to express my thanks for ALL your work and not just this one update. I don't do that nearly enough. I had turned HC spawn off at some point during the hardcore survival upgrades. Playing on hard had gotten too frustrating. A while back FC gave permission to play on normal ;) and the game became much more fun, again. Of course I was too lazy to turn HC spawn back on. Now, game on.

Thanks FC!

[MoRmEnGiL]

I agree with iron hands above, btw is something that grows in you, not necessarily something that goes for the instant wow factor, and this is by design right?

I'm not a huge fan of hc spawn, but I don't dislike it either, I kinda think it might be a bit too punishing at the very early game, but later on it is just enough of an inconvenience as to not take death lightly. Which is achieving it's goal for me, so yeah. If you want coop and do not like being separated from your co player, just tp to him, what's the big deal? How is tping a bigger cheat than turning hcs off?

In the end, it is a game, and it should be a source of fun, not only for players, but for the guy spending his days making it. Don't take that away.

[FlowerChild]

Thanks again for the support guys.

No worries. Yes, I realize that negative reactions are inevitable when I do something like this. They started on MCF pretty much immediately, and I'm sure even Icy's update video will see a fair share.

When it starts immediately in the release thread on these forums here though, it starts getting depressing. As I've mentioned before, these forums serve as a bit of a sanctuary for me from the general chaos that is the MC community. I also find it particularly depressing when people launch into a critique before taking the time to try things out, which is something I've mentioned many times in the past as a big no-no on these forums. It's a total kill-joy.

I think it was also just the nature of how I worked on this release that did me in. I had decided weeks ago that the HC Spawn option was going to get the axe, so that was already a done deal for me. Actually removing the option was like 10 minutes work amongst about three days where I was focused on the other stuff in the update, especially the soul sand functionality, so I was hardly even thinking of that aspect when I put it out. So, in my mind, the release was happy happy "Hey guys! Here's a bunch of new stuff I've been working on! Ain't it cool?". In other words, my own good spirits over what I had been working on wound up acting against me when the reaction was very different from what I had anticipated.

Next option to get the axe? Hardcore Buckets please. Time to separate the coddled masses from the real gamers. :P

That's a tough one man. Yes, ultimately I'd like to give it the boot, and if I were designing the mod from scratch it would most certainly be non-optional, but unlike HC Spawn (where I was waiting to "complete" the feature), HC Buckets is optional to prevent fucking with people's older worlds. It's very strange indeed to have a whole bunch of machinery setup to function by moving source blocks and suddenly have to switch over in the same world. It doesn't break the actual builds, but it creates a rather large disconnect, like everything else you built was cheated in. I've tried it myself in my 2.5 year old world, and it wasn't at all pleasant, to the point where I myself tend to turn it off in that world, so...yeah :)

I may create a discussion thread about that soon (not now please, I want to try and recover focus on other stuff I'm working on first) to get a better sense of how people feel about it. It sucks big time that new players coming into the mod have a tendency to turn it off, as it really is how the mod is intended to be played now, but on the other hand, it sucks big time for old-timers not to be able to turn it off as well.

[chaoticneutral]

Mildly off-topic [it's not about the HC Spawn, but the release]: now I don't need to break additional blocks just to put a Jack on my ceilings! Thank you, FC!

[And the renaming of Hunger was sensible - food causing hunger was weird.]

[-J-]

I'd just like to give my two cents on the subject. I've been playing with the HCS for a good while now. I've mostly been playing my SP world but I've also been playing in LAN with a friend of mine and both of us noticed that even though punishing as all hell, it's also a helluva lot of fun to be stranded while knowing that the other guy is around there somewhere and waiting for a reunion. When I finally found my partner in crime it was incredibly satisfying. I realize that with some less experienced players it might be a bit hard but you'll never learn if you don't try. In the end it isn't even that hard if you take the time to go around building little safehouses and waypoints every now and then. I actually found my way back home from around 500-700 blocks away due to my early game expooration. And there was an ocean between the two spawns.

[Fret]

That's it.
Your reaction to this change, is roughly the same as to when hardcore spawn was first added. Or hardcore buckets. But look at each of those changes, hell look at every hardcore * change put in the mod. Just last week people were saying how night and day the mod is from vanilla or even BTW a year ago. How it's the only way to play Minecraft now. Do you honestly think the mind behind Better than Wolves would just take a giant shit all over that hard work?

I look at how this mod has progressed in just the last six months, and it's amazing. It is the only way I can play Minecraft now. And if you don't like the change and feel it's too much, then take a little break. A good number of people did when the hardcore changes were first put in. FlowerChild is polishing and finishing Better than Wolves. Come back in a few weeks, or a month and take a look at it then. I think you might find your reaction to this change to be a lot like those first changes.

This. I play and love this mod exactly because of the bold design choices FC makes. The hardcore rules are gaming gold, including this one.

[DreamsofFury]

A friend of mine from work just bought minecraft on friday, by monday he had a fully safe base and was playing with redstone and complaining he was bored, I just today passed him the mod and a VERY detailed "how to install" since he is a computer illiterate idiot along with a basic "do and dont" guide along with a list of a few things to expect. I cant wait to hear the results tomorrow, he has plenty of time to play tonight and when he wakes up, hes comes in 2 hours before I leave and I expect to hear many interesting stories. I'll relay his take on it here :D

[DaveYanakov]

That right there is a defiant cry against those who would consign us to scripted gameplay and all the dread flavours of quick time events. Water cooler games are not dead, they just went underground for awhile.

[Shengji]

A friend of mine from work just bought minecraft on friday, by monday he had a fully safe base and was playing with redstone and complaining he was bored, I just today passed him the mod and a VERY detailed "how to install" since he is a computer illiterate idiot along with a basic "do and dont" guide along with a list of a few things to expect. I cant wait to hear the results tomorrow, he has plenty of time to play tonight and when he wakes up, hes comes in 2 hours before I leave and I expect to hear many interesting stories. I'll relay his take on it here :D

Plug in a usb mic, install fraps and get him to make a LP - I'm planning on doing the same to my husband, I've done it before, way back when and the results were hilarious, he thought a creeper was a gorilla and when it exploded he thought a meteorite had dropped from the sky and killed the poor animal!

[DreamsofFury]

Plug in a usb mic, install fraps and get him to make a LP - I'm planning on doing the same to my husband, I've done it before, way back when and the results were hilarious, he thought a creeper was a gorilla and when it exploded he thought a meteorite had dropped from the sky and killed the poor animal!

Ha thats amazing, too bad my friend has already been playing and I wont see him for a few hours still or I would have started him on that.

[DreamsofFury]

Final take on my friends new experiences, he wouldent shut up about how awesome it was, even when our boss came by and told him to get back to work he kept on going and got our boss interested, turns out she plays minecraft with her kids as well.....so this should turn out interesting. I would type more but I have to be back at work in 7 hours and iv only been home for less than 2, so peace out and more details later.

[FlowerChild]

Now you just need to hope that he doesn't get so addicted that he visits here and sees you calling him a "computer illiterate idiot" :)

[DreamsofFury]

Now you just need to hope that he doesn't get so addicted that he visits here and sees you calling him a "computer illiterate idiot" :)

His words, so I'm in the clear, in our friendship I'm the computer guy hes the mechanic.

[murillokb]

In humble opinion it is Hardcore Beds all over again.

At first was a huge wall of bitching, many here were negative about it but today no one knows what is sleeping in a bed anymore and when we think about it, it feels cheaty as hell! It was a moment where the weak and close minded dropped BTW and only those who decided to follow FlowerChild and trust him stayed.

I think making HCS non-optional was a great move by FC (again) and everyone is going to get used to it and love it!

[Battosay]

It's sad to see all of you trash Sarudak because he expressed his opinion on HCSpawn becoming non-optional all of a sudden. Especially in such a way.
Do I like HCSpawn concept ? Yeah, it's a nice mechanic, it really makes death a challenge and force you to be more carefull. But it's a huge time sink. And I can't, and don't want to, invest as much time in MC as I used to. I started playing again 1 month ago, a couple of hours here and there, and it took me two weeks to find a village, get a sustainable farm and finally be able to focus on the BTW tech tree.
Here I am on my trip back near spawn, to finally settle somewhere.

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And again, I like most of the new changes that drastically change the survival aspect, but that's not why I play MC : I want to build stuff.
I'm glad that FC actually made MC a survival game, because clearly it wasn't before. The strata is pure genius. The Iron change seemed at first like a bad idea, but I've grown to love it, because now everybody needs to make a mobtrap, soon. Hunger is now a real issue. You have to think twice before wearing your iron armor, as there's a real drawback. Mobs are a fucking big threat.
It took me some real effort to be able to start a small base :

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And it was fun, sure. But I wasn't thrilled. I was never playing more than two or 3 hours a day, not everyday.
It's only a few days ago, when I started building my first auto Kiln that I truly had a blast, and spent almost all night playing :

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This is what makes me wanna play MC, that's the reason I kept playing, because that's what I wanted to do.
I'm finally there. And I don't want to use HCSpawn. Because, if I die (and so far I only died once, when I first met the Beast), I know it'll take me days to come back. Because I'm lazy, and it won't motivate me to play much.

I'm I a special case ? Probably. So were Sarudak and his wife. That's why I liked it being optional, because not everybody is as Hardcore as you guys claim to be.

[Shengji]

It's sad to see all of you trash Sarudak...

To be fair, only one person actively trashed him - and I was twitching to PM them and ask them to reign it in a bit, but the conversation had moved on and no-one had piled on so I didn't.

Everyone else just tried in their own ways to counteract the wall of negativity FC faced on uploading the update.

'm finally there. And I don't want to use HCSpawn. Because, if I die (and so far I only died once, when I first met the Beast), I know it'll take me days to come back. Because I'm lazy, and it won't motivate me to play much.

I'm I a special case ? Probably. So were Sarudak and his wife. That's why I liked it being optional, because not everybody is as Hardcore as you guys claim to be.

We're all special cases, I don't consider myself hardcore at all, in fact I like HC spawn because it enforces a change of pace - I get bored with building and I suggest that because you are so focused on the one aspect, you are way more HC than me - but maybe that's just a difference of linguistics and perspective.

And we are ultimately talking about a handful of hours in a world you would normally spend hundreds of hours in before HC Spawn becomes a non issue, and that's assuming you don't use external programs/console commands etc.

[lifeiwater]

I'm I a special case ? Probably. So were Sarudak and his wife. That's why I liked it being optional, because not everybody is as Hardcore as you guys claim to be.

I don't think you or Sarudak are a special case. I guess on this forum sure, but I feel the same way as both of you.

I started BTW back when it first went multiplayer... so right before all the hardcore modes were introduced. Prior to that I was a bukkit server admin/owner. Bukkit players mindset is much different from the mentality here, as most of you know. We have more control over the minecraft experience. It was quite a shock to see all the massive changes being made. At first I couldn't understand the overall big picture of the changes. My server denizens can vouch for my rage each patch as things got progressively harder. I actually believe at one point i stated if HCS ever become non-optional, I would quit and probably shut down the server.

I guess I've come a long way since then. I don't really find BTW as hard as it used to be, but considering its all I play, I guess that makes sense. A lot of my vanilla tendencies have been broken, and I play much differently then I used to. It took me some time, and a few "start overs" on my server, but I've come to appreciate the point of almost every change implemented. I think HC Spawn is going to the same. I dont think I'll ever truly enjoy being detracted from building an epic creation because I was killed by a creeper, a spider and a skeleton. But a game without serious consequences for death isn't very fun, and it is something that's been missing from minecraft forever. Overall it creates a better caliber of player as well. A player that actually fears death is a much more careful/skilled player. Either that or they die over and over :)

[MoRmEnGiL]

I agree with Batto in many of his points. Mc, and btw for me is all about building complicated contraptions. That's what I enjoy. Making it more hardcore survival is fine, and makes being able to finally build more satisfying. Plus many of the changes promote even more builds. Cool stuff.

But I'm afraid it will get to a point that all the survival aspects start to detract from what I love about mc.. Already there are a few changes that do so, like being unable to jump stack. Now hc spawn is borderline for me. As I said, early on it is a bitch, but later on I kinda get a thrill by the notion that I will respawn in a unknown area in the general vicinity of my base. But I can see the time sink factor of it all, and I realise not everybody has that much time to put in this game..

[Rob]

It's sad to see all of you trash Sarudak because he expressed his opinion on HCSpawn becoming non-optional all of a sudden. Especially in such a way.

My apologies if my post came off on an attack on Sarudak. My problem wasn't truly with him. I'm glad he voices his opinion openly towards FC, on his real account. He wasn't sneaky and rude with his protest. What I didn't like, was Rawny, who created the two burn accounts to add nonsense to both the first thread that was locked immediately after, and then the second thread that was created to show support to FC. I may have gone over board, and generalized to the point that it pointed at multiple people, but I didn't mean disrespect to Sarudak.