Arg, fuck, kill (ranting at cpw)

[FlowerChild]

You'll notice that my personal definition of what constitutes a "good" idea includes the ability and cost to implement. THAT is a crucial aspect of ideas that many people neglect, and being able to produce something good starts at the idea stage in terms of thinking in terms of cost/benefit.

If you shape and filter your ideas in such a way, you save yourself a huge amount of time and effort in terms of development before you even get to the implementation stage. Ideas that fail to do so inevitably cause hell for everyone involved, and those are the ideas which qualify as "cheap" IMO.

[Sage]

You'll notice that my personal definition of what constitutes a "good" idea includes the ability and cost to implement. THAT is a crucial aspect of ideas that many people neglect, and being able to produce something good starts at the idea stage in terms of thinking in terms of cost/benefit.

If you shape and filter your ideas in such a way, you save yourself a huge amount of time and effort in terms of development before you even get to the implementation stage. Ideas that fail to do so inevitably cause hell for everyone involved, and those are the ideas which qualify as "cheap" IMO.

Eh, it sounds like something painful you learned from your career in the industry. There is this sort of wankery in every work. I've heard of facepalm-level stuff that can happen in labs...I wonder if I'll have to experience them in first-person <shivers>

But in a certain way I'm somewhat grateful that things like this happen, because if they take the form of a polygonal wolf, they lead to great mods :P

[Shengji]

You'll notice that my personal definition of what constitutes a "good" idea includes the ability and cost to implement. THAT is a crucial aspect of ideas that many people neglect, and being able to produce something good starts at the idea stage in terms of thinking in terms of cost/benefit.

If you shape and filter your ideas in such a way, you save yourself a huge amount of time and effort in terms of development before you even get to the implementation stage. Ideas that fail to do so inevitably cause hell for everyone involved, and those are the ideas which qualify as "cheap" IMO.

This statement is so unbelievably spot on - as a thought exercise, apply it to double fines current situation and notice how it fits like a glove!!!

[Sarudak]

Wow I didn't know Double Fine was having such troubles. I can see how getting too much money might make things go pear shaped. I hope this doesn't end up happening to other projects. I really want castle story to turn out well :P

[FlowerChild]

Wow I didn't know Double Fine was having such troubles. I can see how getting too much money might make things go pear shaped. I hope this doesn't end up happening to other projects. I really want castle story to turn out well :P

I've seen too much money (in the form of private investment or government grants) fuck up more than one company faster than any other cause. It's one of the reasons why I've always been so determined to start something from the ground up, brick by brick (like my policy of not working with anyone else until I can afford to pay them).

You even see it in private life where people that win the lotto often have a tendency to blow all their cash and wind up destitute as a result.

Heck, there might even be a Minecraft development analogy here if you dig deep enough ;)

[Sarudak]

Yeah. Although I would expect for Notch it was more too much popularity than too much money...

[FlowerChild]

Yeah. Although I would expect for Notch it was more too much popularity than too much money...

I don't disagree, but too much money gives you the flexibility to walk away from annoyance. Needing to eat will inspire you to put up with an awful lot of crap :)

Most people only work because they have to.

[Sarudak]

Well that's true. But again the source of the annoyance was from the popularity.

And on point Notch is still working on games. Perhaps not as hard I have no way of knowing. He just wanted to get away from the crowds and pressure.

[FlowerChild]

Well that's true. But again the source of the annoyance was from the popularity.

Or the form that popularity took, and how rapidly it came on, yeah.

I think money is definitely playing a role though. He really doesn't appear to be the hungry young developer anymore given his rate of progress (or lack thereof) on his new title. So, the annoyance has been removed, but he still isn't really producing, at least at nowhere near the rate he was on MC, where I believe he developed pretty much the whole thing on his own in three years.

I believe Notch left Minecraft dev in November 2011. Since then, all we've seen out of 0x10c is a lot of ambitious sounding plans, and a very basic deathmatch video that seemed to have none of those plans implemented. The web page hasn't been updated since November 2012, and I've even seen an article interviewing Notch where he seems distinctly uncertain as to whether the game will even be completed.

I think it safe to say he's lost his hunger man. In comparison to MC's development this is in a completely different ballpark, and he now has a whole team at his disposal.

[Sarudak]

Yeah I can see that. Hope that doesn't happen to you after you become fabulously wealthy from Return To Home... :D

[FlowerChild]

Yeah I can see that. Hope that doesn't happen to you after you become fabulously wealthy from Return To Home... :D

Lol...yeah, that's not going to happen :)

And keep in mind, I've been doing this the past two years without earning significant coin off of it (at least nowhere close to what I could be making as a professional dev), so I think it safe to say the source of my obsession transcends money. I have no doubt that if I were independently wealthy, how I choose to live my life would remain relatively unchanged (well, other than Scotch vs Whiskey). This is just what I love doing.

[Sarudak]

Yeah. Honestly I would be more concerned about the popularity getting to you. I know you've been able to handle it amazingly well so far but the traffic this mod has gotten is nothing compared to minecraft itself.

In any case... three years? I'm sure you can beat that with RTH. ;)

Also I think I may owe you another bottle of scotch... :)

[FlowerChild]

In any case... three years? I'm sure you can beat that with RTH. ;)

We'll see. My goal with RTH is to build myself a platform on which I can continue developing indefinitely, and put myself into a situation similar to what I have with the mod, but completely under my control, with less MC community nonsense, and with hopefully a bit less financial stress.

So no, definitely not three years before you guys are playing something, but if I'm still developing it in three years, I'll be a happy camper.

Also I think I may owe you another bottle of scotch... :)

Woot!

I may actually have to start rattling the tin cup again soon. Donations have slacked off as of late, and this extended period wrapping up BTW has put me in a bit of a financial crunch.

I'm probably going to attempt to crowd-fund RTH a bit to get the ball rolling once I have something playable, which is another reason I need to wrap this thing up :)

[Sarudak]

Ok fine. You don't have to buy scotch if you need like food to not starve or gas to not freeze or something I suppose that's acceptable. :)

[FlowerChild]

Yeah. Honestly I would be more concerned about the popularity getting to you. I know you've been able to handle it amazingly well so far but the traffic this mod has gotten is nothing compared to minecraft itself.

Bah, smaller audience or no, I think I've proven time and time again that I can deal with it far better than most.

I think a big part of that has to do with my personal motivations revolving so much around creative control as opposed to popularity. I've always wanted to make something good as opposed to popular, and that tends to keep my head on straight when facing backlash.

[kregoth]

Well that's true. But again the source of the annoyance was from the popularity.

Or the form that popularity took, and how rapidly it came on, yeah.

I think money is definitely playing a role though. He really doesn't appear to be the hungry young developer anymore given his rate of progress (or lack thereof) on his new title. So, the annoyance has been removed, but he still isn't really producing, at least at nowhere near the rate he was on MC, where I believe he developed pretty much the whole thing on his own in three years.

I believe Notch left Minecraft dev in November 2011. Since then, all we've seen out of 0x10c is a lot of ambitious sounding plans, and a very basic deathmatch video that seemed to have none of those plans implemented. The web page hasn't been updated since November 2012, and I've even seen an article interviewing Notch where he seems distinctly uncertain as to whether the game will even be completed.

I think it safe to say he's lost his hunger man. In comparison to MC's development this is in a completely different ballpark, and he now has a whole team at his disposal.

I have always viewed notch as a programmer at heart with good design. My main understanding of why he left MC, was well he finished what he wanted to create (it took 3 years mind you). The massive demand to continue to work on it wasn't what he wanted. This is why he has secluded himself so much with 0x10c. Notch is a experimenter, he likes to try building things, the sad part is every time he did that with minecraft everyone begged for it as a feature, why do you think he hates the half block? At least thats my opinion of Notch.

I think Notch is still in that stage of experimenting more than building, he just wants to create and not be tasked to build! This also goes for 0x10c, he doesn't want people to see what his experimenting with. I wouldn't be surprised that after he finishes it, he will go off and do the same thing.

[Pfilson]

I ll try to keep this coherent, but the thoughts I have on the current attitudes are a big mess of cause and effect..
Edit: uh.. this is going to be lengthy apparently.

Overall I feel like Minecraft would have been better if they had followed you in the way ideas were treated.

Their comment that Minecraft is a sandbox game that people should be able to play how they want seems to be at the root of the problem.. Back, pre 1.0 i think, Notch said that MC was never intended as a sandbox game, but that was the original feel and really is where the mentality of the community is stuck. "This is my play place let me do what I want! If you don't let me and bend over backwards for me to do so then you are not in the spirit of MC"

A lot of people had huge issues when the hunger mechanics were added because it was no longer the Minecraft they knew and then also with the potion system. We have seen how you are affected when people do nothing but complain about a feature you add/change. You put a lot of thought and have a vision for BTW and i imagine Notch did as well. To me it's no wonder why he stopped working on Minecraft and now we have people working on it that don't have his original vision. I know BTW would be no where near where it is now if BWF, or one of the many other attacks on you, had caused you to stop working on it and someone else tried to take over.

I think the community as a whole would be better served if they put a feature freeze on MC and focused on bug fixing and Mojang, not Forge, finalized some sort of API/Plugin system. Trying to add features and fix the code at the same time just seems to me like trying to solve a maze while it's still being built around you. I don't see any way that MC is going to become a whole game at this pace and the features that they are adding would be better served as plug ins/mods. We have even heard as much in the IRC that the things they add to the game end up breaking something else, which should be a huge red flag.

There is a reason that BTW feels like Minecraft and that is largely because you haven't just thrown crap into the game, "Y U NO add Unobtainium tools!". You have found ways to make what MC already provides an integrated whole and added a feeling of achievement to survival. Unfortunately sticking to your guns makes people unhappy, but you deal with that and don't let it change your vision. You accept ideas that are good and have no qualms about saying no and ripping out ones that do not fit the balance that you have worked hard to establish.

Well thats enough of a wall and anything more is going off topic and is covered by the RTH.

Just thank you for not bowing to the Borg.

[Foxy Boxes]

I don't know. I see a big part being your ability to (not so) politely tell people to "fuck off". That ability to tell people no without fear of response.

[CrafterOfMines57]

I don't understand what the horses have to do with this argument though, is FlowerChild like personally responsible for re-implementing all of the crap Mojang decides to put into Minecraft?

[FlowerChild]

I don't know. I see a big part being your ability to (not so) politely tell people to "fuck off". That ability to tell people no without fear of response.

Yes, but that comes down to why I do this, no? If I were doing it for popularity, then there goes the ability to say "fuck off", as it would conflict with my own motivations. Since I do it out of love for the activity itself, and a desire to create something good, public demands that act counter to those goals thus act counter to my own motivations, and "fuck off" becomes a valid response.

People may think they have their own motivations, and maybe even do, when they start a modding or game project, but at its core, if what you're really hoping for is to be loved (or if the desire to be loved is stronger than those other motivations), you're putting those desires at the mercy of the public in the long term.

I of course don't like being hated. As I've mentioned before, I am human. However, my own desire to create something that I personally view as good, after so long in an industry that caters to the lowest common denominator, far outweighs the desire to be liked.

Personally, I find that when people confuse what's actually motivating them with some kind of altruistic goal like "helping" others, not only do they get themselves into trouble by not being able to keep what's actually important to them in focus, but I don't particularly trust them either. This is actually a sentiment that's lurking beneath my debate with cpw, in that he makes a lot of mention of wanting to "help" the modding community or modders in some ambiguous way, but no mention of why he's actually spending his free time making an API, and what drives him to devote so much energy to doing so.

Perhaps I'm a cynic, but I have an inherent distrust of what are portrayed as inherently altruistic motivations.

[FlowerChild]

I don't understand what the horses have to do with this argument though, is FlowerChild like personally responsible for re-implementing all of the crap Mojang decides to put into Minecraft?

He's attempting to discredit me now that he's blocked me from responding, because he's apparently incapable of countering my arguments. No biggy, and it's just making him look weak and petty.

He's not a creative individual, so I think most of what I said is right over his head, probably as it will be for most of the MC community. I will hold out some hope however that there are a few modders that might hear what I'm saying, as they're the important ones in all this.

[Mr_Hosed]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the minecraft modding community is very odd from any mod scene I've ever been involved with.

Personally, I think most of this value placed on "compatibility" stems from the original collection of mods available for Minecraft (1.2 Beta days before BTW even existed). They were either little APIs (modloader, Player API, etc) or little item mods (guns, tools, etc). It made sense that the players would like to combine various little mods in that environment.

Everything started falling apart though when people started wanting to combine larger wholistic visions like BTW, BuildCraft, IC, etc and the creators decided to promote that via Forge. I doubt anyone original involved in Forge ever thought things would become this though.

I look at CPW as a symptom of these mistakes (made by the community, mod makers, and most of all Mojang) rather then the cause, though he does help propagate it. It seems to me that this guy would be much happier working on an opensource API or a game engine, but he got drawn in and now he's vested in Forge. It's difficult for people to let go of something they've invested that much into.

[FlowerChild]

I didn't see it happening. I genuinely believed in Forge when I got involved, and in Space Toad as the right kind of person to head that effort. Buildcraft was probably the mod I respected the most back then, and Toad had recently released oil, proving that he was serious about gameplay, and not just the pure functionality that typifies most mods (also why I eventually decided to develop BTB with him).

Believe me man, I've asked myself many times what would have happened if I hadn't become involved with Forge and helped to promote it to the extent I did. Along with a few other incidents along the way, that's a big part of my adamant "I work alone" stance. Some of the biggest mistakes I've made during the development of BTW, and the ones that have wound up hurting the players the most, have been when I've decided to make exceptions to that rule.

[Shengji]

and in Space Toad as the right kind of person to head that effort.

The moment I stopped believing in forge was when ST backed away from it. I always believed some of the more destructive elements could be managed, their personal goals tolerated and sidelined as the forge gained greater acceptance amongst modders, but it needed someone really good. As it is, it has failed - it is so obfuscated by utter wankery that it was easier to get mods to play nicely pre forge than it is to develop for forge today. Everyone may get the exact combo of mods they want, but the trade-off is the dulling down of the minecraft experience for everyone.

[FlowerChild]

The moment I stopped believing in forge was when ST backed away from it. I always believed some of the more destructive elements could be managed, their personal goals tolerated and sidelined as the forge gained greater acceptance amongst modders, but it needed someone really good. As it is, it has failed - it is so obfuscated by utter wankery that it was easier to get mods to play nicely pre forge than it is to develop for forge today. Everyone may get the exact combo of mods they want, but the trade-off is the dulling down of the minecraft experience for everyone.

Thanks for that Shengji. I respect your opinion a great deal, so I appreciate you verifying I am not completely insane in viewing it that way. Given how few people seem to get my point with stuff like this, I will admit to the occasional "have I lost it?" moment :)