HC Spawn observation

[M!C]

After a long break I've finally returned to BTW once more, rediscovering the beauty that is this mod.

Thanks for that, FC.

I was particularly excited about HC Spawn, since it promised to make dying what it should be: a pain.

After playing for a while (lots of deaths and respawns at 7 different locations) I noticed that for me, on a large biomes map, HC Spawn wasn't as much of a problem as I had anticipated, in the sense that it'd force me to start a new base. Through dying and exploration/hunting I quickly got to know the biome configuration around the initial spawn/my base. With a basic set of instructions (and no landmarks at all) even my friend, whom I invited to check out my world, managed to get to my base without first spending any time on gathering food.
As a result, instead of building new bases or landmarks for orientation I mostly just walked back to my base, since my hunger bar alone was enough to carry me there.

Was I just lucky all the time or is this something someone else also experienced?
I guess this problem only really comes up with large biomes enabled, which arguably is not the default game mode, so I'm not sure, if it really needs "fixing".

[FlowerChild]

Good to hear from you man!

Hmmmm...I *think* that may be large biome specific. I know I am currently thoroughly lost in my world after having died several times (probably at least 5...maybe more), and I think I can count a good 4 separate bases I've started up, during that process, having only immediately found a previous base when I got really lucky in spawning within a couple of hundred meters of it.

It may also be a matter of playstyle as I tend to be rather sedentary and stay in the immediate vicinity of my bases, so I may not have learned the surrounding landscape as well as someone that plays more nomadic.

I'd be interested in hearing about people's feeling on this though, as well as details such as whether they're playing large biomes, whether they tend to play nomadic, whether they tend to establish landmarks that have helped them navigate their world and such.

[jkievlan]

I can second this observation. In my newest world (created after BTW 4.8 so I could fully experience stratification), I have just one main base. I always just grab a couple things and go find the original...it's not that hard once you know several biomes in your world and some of their unique features. And no, I am not playing on large biomes.

That said, it's still a big challenge and forces me to build various things (landmarks, roads, food caches) to make the wilderness a little safer. And I would say, I played on HC spawn for quite a while before I started to learn how to find bases again.

[brab]

I've been dying quite a bit (on normal biome setting), and this made me change how I play. Initially, I would spend a while looking around, trying to see if I could recognize the landscape. I can't count the number of times where I thought I recognized it, to end up losing too much time and dying of hunger or from mobs (very often from wolves).

I now play differently: when I spawn somewhere new, I immediately settle down, with a first goal of an axe and a chest, where I will put most of what I gather. Sometimes it will take me several deaths if I spawn during the night or late during the day (but with the recent release this will no longer be a problem), but I found out that even when dying one is able to make progress. So I now have four to five tiny bases, more or less advanced (the most advanced one has pumpkins, mushrooms, chickens, hemp, and cows trapped nearby), and I will keep building until I'm able to connect them together ... in a very long time.

I really enjoy how HC spawn forces you to go beyond a single base and colonize a big chunk of the world.

[M!C]

Not sure how much help it is, but here's how I picture my map in my head (I've never looked at it with MCedit or other tools).

East is up on it, the star is my base and the arrows respawn locations as I remember them. The red lines are the paths I took to get back. (You can easily deduce my "rules" from them, such as "When in forest head south, then east along biome border, then south again where borders meet")

The scale is pure guesswork, so don't take it too seriously.

Spoiler

Show

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-7NjOK ... sp=sharing

[PatriotBob]

I think this also has a lot to do with a player's sense of direction. Once I have explored someplace, the terrain serves as it's own landmark and direction. So coming across it after respawn guides me straight back home.

But I know a lot of players that get turned around fairly easily. And by extension they make use of things like torches on the right/left of caves, directional markers etc. (Watching Icy's & FC's LP comes to mind)

Edit: In regards to large biome maps, they tend to make things easier. On a regular world. If you respawn in a forest, you don't know if this is a forest you've seen before or a new one. So you have to flail about for a bit to find something familiar. On large biomes, the likelihood of having duplicates of the same biome within HC spawn distance is greatly reduced. So when you respawn in the forest, it's quite likely the one you already know and you just go east until you hit plains.

[FlowerChild]

Yeah, I can see how the biomes themselves would act as unique landmarks. As much as I hate options and variance between different modes of play, I may return to Sarudak's suggestion from awhile ago to provide an alternate HC spawn distance (adjusting abandoned village distance to match) for large biomes.

I don't think I'd make it optional, it would just be how it is with large biome worlds, and thus would likely be very quick for me to implement.

I do hope that people won't take it as me now supporting large biomes though, as that could lead to a flood of requests for additional changes. I think that's probably why I shied away from such an idea in the first place, viewing it as a potential slippery slope. I may not even mention it in the release notes as a result, and will just say something somewhere on these forums if I decide to do it.

[ExpHP]

I can't really agree with this observation, though I am playing on normal biomes, and my base is not at spawn. (it's... 500 blocks south, maybe?)

Some basic data:
- I've had 6 respawns.
- Only once have I found my way home immediately. Note that my base is in the middle of a gulf, so I can't possibly miss it if I'm nearby.
- Twice, I went nomadic in an attempt to leave the HCS radius and protect animals. Both attempts failed.
- 3 times, I set up a remote base and only ventured out for occasional hunting trips.
- Twice, I managed to earn my way home after several days.

The second of these successful trips home just finished yesterday. While I was at this base, I've finally begun building waypoints and directional markers on treetops, and begun to avoid placing torches on the ground in unimportant places where they might mislead me. In the end, I made a Compass and built two-way path markers the whole way home.

tl;dr: I'm not finding my way home easily, I have had to work my way up through iron/diamond a couple of times, and I'm now beginning to build things all over so I stop getting lost all the time. But it is normal biomes.

[DaveYanakov]

As someone who enjoys large biomes for the challenge as well as the expanded building space, I feel like a flat increase of HCS and abandoned village radius by the same multiplyer that large biomes mode applies to everything else would fit the epic journey concept quite neatly. By my very rough estimate, such a radius would require a minimum of ten steaks and three days of travel if stopping at night if the exact direction of home base is known. Large biomes would very much encourage the building of well developed satellite bases which could be used as jumping off points in village hunts.

[FlowerChild]

Just checked the wiki (like always, I only play on default options, so I have very little experience with large biomes). The multipler is 4X for large biomes along each axis, which sounds like it would also be a reasonable multiplier for the respawn radius.

[DaveYanakov]

now that I'm at my desk and can see MiC's map, I think his luck with spawning near the borders of so many biomes was mostly luck on his part. I can tell you it is much more difficult when you spawn in the middle of extreme hills instead of at the edge.

[Mr_Hosed]

Before I restarted my world (same seed) after strats were added, I'd died a dozen or more times on it with HCS on (Hard difficulty was not smart). I had 5 bases up, 4 of which were at iron.

I found unless I spawned with-in 100 blocks of a previous base location the only way I found my way back to spawn or another base was when I got lucky and found jungle temples. Compass for the win.

- Normal Biomes, default everything else.
- I tend to pick a spot and develop the snot out of it
- I like building landmarked roads from bases back to spawn with little outpost forts every 1 day's distance travel

I always start at a new spawn by immediately working up to an axe, getting some meat, and digging in for the night so every spawn that isn't near an existing base results in a new base.

[M!C]

now that I'm at my desk and can see MiC's map, I think his luck with spawning near the borders of so many biomes was mostly luck on his part. I can tell you it is much more difficult when you spawn in the middle of extreme hills instead of at the edge.

Well, you can see so many borders because the map covers quite a big area (the border the base is on is about 4 to 5 loading distances long). My initial spawn was a couple hundred blocks into the snowy forest, but I didn't feel like settling there, which is how I ended up on the border (had to dig in for the first night).

Just checked the wiki (like always, I only play on default options, so I have very little experience with large biomes). The multipler is 4X for large biomes along each axis, which sounds like it would also be a reasonable multiplier for the respawn radius.

Sounds good and is more than I hoped for, thank you. :)

[FlowerChild]

Sounds good and is more than I hoped for, thank you. :)

Np...as you know I have a soft spot for people that want their game experience to be more challenging ;)

Plus, the suggestion Sarudak made for an option to set HC spawn distance for large biomes has been nagging at me ever since he made it. It was a valid request, just one that sent chills down my spine given my general opposition to supporting options and optional modes of play.

[M!C]

I hear you there. xD

I've made the mistake of having too many options in one of my game studies ... lets just say it's good balancing practice (read: a balancing nightmare/marathon).

[FlowerChild]

I've made the mistake of having too many options in one of my game studies ... lets just say it's good balancing practice (read: a balancing nightmare/marathon).

Hehe...yeah man. If you ever want to freak a professional producer out as a designer, a sure fire way to do it is write a bunch of options into your design ;)

It's actually amazing how many professional designers don't seem to clue into what it does to a game or its development.

[Fret]

I'd be interested in hearing about people's feeling on this though, as well as details such as whether they're playing large biomes, whether they tend to play nomadic, whether they tend to establish landmarks that have helped them navigate their world and such.

I always play on large biomes and have a good sense of direction. For me navigating really differs depending on the biome. Extreme hills, swamps and plains are super easy to navigate, a small landmark here and there will do the job. Snowbiomes are fine until it starts to snow. Jungles are almost impossible to do at day. I normally put lightblocks on some tall trees so I can see them during the night.