Boats in normal biomes

[Fret]

I had a question for those playing BTW with normal biomes regarding boats.

I always play in large biomes, despite the mod not being balanced around it. I just can't stand how small the biomes are in normal mode. But something I have come across playing with large biomes is how unbalanced boats are. If I live near the coast, I can just build a boat for 5 planks and sail over and enormous ocean, while having to consume little food. Then finding a village is very easy. Since FC has made many remarks on this forum and the minecraft forum about incorporating the nether in getting to villages. I feel like I'm missing out. I never had to travel the 5000 blocks trough the dangerous nether.

So my question is: Those that play with normal biomes, do you have big oceans/long coast lines as well that make boats feel like a cheaty trick?

[Taleric]

I have coasts about 700 blocks away but no long have those temptations.

The recent changes to temples have made large biomes balance much better. Even if you do get wayout quick in a boat it does not let you skip much due to stratification. Also HCS will require that you survive long enough to collect everything and posess a compass to get back.

Lastly a bunch of work has to be done with villagers to maximize SFS and they don't use boats.

[Vexalor]

Of all the things affected by Large Biomes, amount of coastline and ocean size are probably the least affected, so Default and Large Biomes share these oceanic features. A little known fact is that Minecraft generates terrain in the form of "continents" which, in both Default and Large Biomes, are so vast that most players will never leave the "continent" on which the spawned. Generally, when people refer to "oceans" in Minecraft, they are referring to the large-ish bodies of water within said continents and not the enormous oceans between "continents" tens of thousands of blocks away from their current position. These large intercontinental bodies of water are affected by Large Biomes, but these smaller oceans that are the only one most people know except for those that have experienced the desert island spawn, are not really affected much. Indeed, there is actually a minor tendency for these bodies of water to sometimes shrink in Large Biomes because of the expansion of surrounding landmass.

Generation tendencies like these change every version that alters world-gen, but generally, the amount of water you will run into in a Large Biomes world is about equal to that which you would run into in a Default Biomes world. This means that the usefulness of boats is not affected much by which level type you choose, depending on spawn proximity to the intercontinental bodies of water. However, your issue with boats is already (I believe) known by FlowerChild, who has mentioned that he will address this issue soon as part of his work on game balance.

[Fret]

Of all the things affected by Large Biomes, amount of coastline and ocean size are probably the least affected, so Default and Large Biomes share these oceanic features. A little known fact is that Minecraft generates terrain in the form of "continents" which, in both Default and Large Biomes, are so vast that most players will never leave the "continent" on which the spawned. Generally, when people refer to "oceans" in Minecraft, they are referring to the large-ish bodies of water within said continents and not the enormous oceans between "continents" tens of thousands of blocks away from their current position. These large intercontinental bodies of water are affected by Large Biomes, but these smaller oceans that are the only one most people know except for those that have experienced the desert island spawn, are not really affected much. Indeed, there is actually a minor tendency for these bodies of water to sometimes shrink in Large Biomes because of the expansion of surrounding landmass.

Generation tendencies like these change every version that alters world-gen, but generally, the amount of water you will run into in a Large Biomes world is about equal to that which you would run into in a Default Biomes world. This means that the usefulness of boats is not affected much by which level type you choose, depending on spawn proximity to the intercontinental bodies of water. However, your issue with boats is already (I believe) known by FlowerChild, who has mentioned that he will address this issue soon as part of his work on game balance.

Thanks for your informational (is that a word?) post! Good to know this isn't just large biomes and even better that FlowerChild is already on it. As Taleric said recent changes made large biomes way more balanced, but I was scared I was still missing out. Glad I'm not.

[Pucc]

Informative* :)

I can back up Vexalor here by saying I did exactly what you did but with a small biome map. I have a large ocean to the south of my spawn which once sailed across gave me some wheat, I have to admit potatoes and carrots where a little harder to find, but the ocean was the key to me gaining access to these areas. If you built a nether portal at the village you found and attempted to return through that you still have quite the adventure in the nether.

I'd like to point out that large bodies of water close to the original spawn also seem to reduce the severity of HCS. Once dead its usually a case of heading south, since the water appears to prevent you from spawning in the south, until you hit water and then working from familiar land structures.

[DaveYanakov]

The thing you're missing is that you don't have to go 5000 meters in the nether to get outside the abandoned village radius in the overworld. 250 meters will do just fine and you generally go further than that just looking for your first blazes. 5000 nether meters would be 40 kilometers in the overworld. That is excessive by the standards of anyone.

[Pucc]

So really its down to the trade off between Overwold travel time and obsidian availability (given that both the Overworld and the nether possess dangers). Which isn't really a trade off presuming once you've found obsidian you'll have access to at least two portals worth (20), so it doesn't really make boats unbalanced.

I personally went by boat (and to the north by land) so I could get the gist of my surroundings and map the region, two birds one stone kind of thing. That exploration has helped me ten fold when HCS has come into play.

[Fret]

Wow, I really had the numbers wrong. Do I feel stupid now xD

EDIT: Although now I think of it. Boats are very easy to obtain compared to obsidian. The nether road requires diamond pick, thus caving which means risk and quite more food than a boat.

[Six]

Wow, I really had the numbers wrong. Do I feel stupid now xD

EDIT: Although now I think of it. Boats are very easy to obtain compared to obsidian. The nether road requires diamond pick, thus caving which means risk and quite more food than a boat.

You raise a pretty valid point though.
-Boats are very cheap to build, only needing 3 logs to make one from scratch.
-They provide long distance travel with very little hunger drain (although you need on ocean for this to be best).
-While using them, if you stay away from the shore there is next to zero risk from mobs.

[Fret]

You raise a pretty valid point though.
-Boats are very cheap to build, only needing 3 logs to make one from scratch.
-They provide long distance travel with very little hunger drain (although you need on ocean for this to be best).
-While using them, if you stay away from the shore there is next to zero risk from mobs.

Yeah, but the same things make me really like boats for navigating rivers and swamps.

[DaveYanakov]

Here's the thing, though. Exploring by boat does not get you up the tech tree at all. Anything past wood age and most of food prep that you are searching for villages to enable requires nether access anyway. Yes you can cook in a cauldron one thing at a time by using a flint and steel to light a temporary fire but I would prefer to use that 11 percent of an ingot to make a tool.

Regardless of how far you travel you are still going to need to hunt down diamonds. The boat is just the most tedious way to go about it.

[Pucc]

If you compare making a boat to the whole process of gaining obsidian then yes boats appear "overpowered". However assuming you're aiming to access the nether for multiple reasons not just to search for villages I don't think that comparison is a fare one at best. My comparison was based on the fact you already had access to the nether, so the decision which the player then has to make is whats more efficient boat or portal.

- Boats are cheaper to build but assuming again you have that access to obsidian two portals worth of gathering is neither here nor there in comparison.
- They provide long distance travel with little hunger drain but so does the nether. The only factor shifting the favor to boats slightly is the fact you may have to jump occasionally in the nether. Half slabs work a treat. I'd imagine over large distances the general hunger gain over time whilst boating and the hunger gain from a short nether trip will be relatively equal.
- Boats have the advantage here but the nether is usually peaceful if you keep on the move. So the trade off is time or a splash of danger.

There is the fact that boats are restricted to water but of course you knew that :P

[ExpHP]

Hey, If you want to travel far, far away from spawn and set up a base without leaving much of a visible trace of the path you took... have fun.

[jecowa]

Hey, If you want to travel far, far away from spawn and set up a base without leaving much of a visible trace of the path you took... have fun.

It might be best to build the base at spawn and use the compass to find your way home after retrieving the wheat from a village.

[Niyu]

It's not just the wheat, You will also wan't to bring some villagers, and you can't do that with boats.

[Fret]

Well Pucc and DaveYanakov made some good arguments. Boats not overpowered. Case closed in my opinion.

[Graphite]

Hey, If you want to travel far, far away from spawn and set up a base without leaving much of a visible trace of the path you took... have fun.

Actually, as long as you keep the coast in sight, it's really quite easy to find your way around by boat. Only if you randomly sail off to the middle of the ocean do you risk settling down somewhere that you won't be able to find again after dying.

[TheGatesofLogic]

5000 nether meters would be 40 kilometers in the overworld. That is excessive by the standards of anyone.

My nether rail is 13,000 meters long...

[DaveYanakov]

5000 nether meters would be 40 kilometers in the overworld. That is excessive by the standards of anyone.

My nether rail is 13,000 meters long...

And do you deny that it is excessive?