4.69 Gameplay Balance Discussion Thread

[Pfilson]

Note: First part will be more of a play by play of my first experience, things that strike me as off will be at the end.

I finally started from ground zero with the new HC* changes.. (drunken MC and I didn't want to make a stupid mistake in a world I cared about.. heh) I was really expecting to die.. a lot.. so I have been hesitant to start from scratch.. But maybe I just have a more cautious play style than I thought, as I haven't died yet, although I have come close..

I started as we all do. punched a tree, made a wooden pick, stone pick axes, and shovels. My spawn had a good amount of pigs and easily accessed stone, and a bit of visible coal. I keep a good amount of dirt half-slabs on me to help keep my hunger down.. My first night i barricaded myself with half slabs, cooked my meat and picked out some more stone.

Second day I wandered, found fields of sheep for the slaughter, a forest for birch and oak, and a decent cave system with more visible coal. At night I claimed a portion of the cave for myself and cooked up the mutton. At this point I had a good stack and a half of lamb and half a stack of pork. Caving from this point I worked till I had around 5 iron ingots at this point wood is about to be more of an issue than coal..

At this point I had to stop and decide what I was going to do.. Hoe, shears, pick, sword? I hadn't seen one cow, no crops besides hemp to plant anyway, and no chickens yet either.. Not a good place to set up base.. But, do I really want to chance a nether run to get to a new area? Now that is a frightening prospect.. The nether is the plan, but.. it's really going to be a run if my portal is in the open..

I've since run into a mine, a natural tree hole (probably the strangest worldgen I've seen underground yet.. I should have taken a picture), taken out a cave spider spawner, and found 2 diamonds. Besides seeds and a few iron ingots I have yet to see any big bonus to finding the mine.. no cows, no wolves, no crops, melting down anything is still far off.. My initial food supply is starting to get low and I'll need to return to the surface, or make a hoe and find underground water to grow melons..

---- things that feel off ---

The only thing that I have really had to take a double take on was that oak wood cooks as well as coal and birch even better.. I then recalled you saying that you were changing burn times based on wood type.. An Oak or Birch farm feels like it would negate the need for automating coal production *facepalm* disregard.. I forgot you could make coal dust out of it.

I guess the only thing that struck me is, while a life saver at times, dirt slabs feel a bit.. easy? Or at least a bit meta..

And I have to disagree with people who think finding a mine shaft has a unballancing effect on early game. The work you have to do to get into one to maybe find some iron ingots and melon seeds in a chest, make it feel pretty balanced, unless you happen to find a mine that is fully lit. Once you can melt down anything else you might find there you could probably make more iron from a mobtrap.

---

Overall I'm really enjoying the new experience that comes with the early game; the decisions on what to use for food, when to start the search for iron, and what to do with your iron, makes for a great and varied experience that can change with each spawn. It really brings game back to the early game.

[DnDiene]

Hey FlowerChild. First of all, thank you very much for making this mod. I've started playing a few weeks a go and have been really enjoying it. My views on the mod so far:

I've played until midgame and overall it feels really balanced. Two small things:

- I really like hardcore lightning. It makes coal more valuable and makes it a lot harder to make an area safe from mobs. However, I ended up always mining in the dark to save torches. Maybe a carryable torch would help? Or a very cheap torch that has limited burn time?
- I had a few situations where I ended up stuck in a hole because I was starving. That's no problem, because that's my mistake. However actually dieing took a lot of time because I couldn't jump and could move only very slowly. So I ended up staring at a wall for 5 minutes waiting do die. I suggest making the last 2 hunger bars go down faster. Or make it so you have at least a little hope of surviving when you are down to 2 hunger bars.

Keep up the great work!

[johnt]

I don't understand why everyone is running out of torches. You should easily get surface coal with minimal exploration and enough coal while branch mining to smelt everything you find, light your tunnels and have some left over.

[Taleric]

That and nethercoal... Just too optimal of a recipe to pass up. Especially when you are lighting all chunks including caves in a 128 x 128 block reach for grinders.

[heypaint]

Considering all the major changes no one seems to have any major issues; most people like it much better than just a couple of updates before. So at the risk of sounding like a twat....

I declare this game balanced!

Feel free to tweak to your liking, but people are not describing any major issues. That's pretty cool.

[Panda]

I've found that early game I'm less motivated to build shelter because I starve to death. I tend to live in a cave very early. This is mainly because I tent to build tall houses which require jumping. I feel like something is missing early on if you don't want to make the local animals be wiped out but still want to eat and gather food.

[IzBatt]

I started from scratch when the 4.67 launched. I'm super pleased with the game progression as a whole.
When I did stupid stuff I died, when I died at night I kept dying trying to get back to my base about 1500 blocks away, 80% loss of gear on deaths from doing stupid stuff serves me right for being stupid. BTW is not all too forgiving, which is a feature I like a lot.
Even after finding a few villages and a mine shaft and getting all the crops the game offers, it was still difficult due to growth changes. Without periodically venturing into the wild(because I had no animals yet), I would have starved to death (my base is in a desert biome) so the local food supply has long dried up.
The struggle to climb the tech tree has been just that a struggle. However I will state as did the first responder, after finding my first vein of diamonds, I had enough diamonds to make a pickax and an enchant table, after 2 diamond veins I had a sword, shovel, another pickax, enchanted them all, and basically got propelled to SFS. I'm talking 2-3 weeks of playing maybe 1-2 hours a night to get to all crops, an established based, 2 of each animal, 2 windmills, and a saw. When I got diamonds I was able to get from that point to the top of the tech tree in one 1-2 hour session.
I felt as though the struggle ended with diamond tools as it took 2 weeks to get through 2 Ages of Wood and 2 hours post diamonds to get to the top of the tech tree.

Hopefully this helps in some way. FC thanks for all your hard work! I'm super psyched to continue following your work for the indefinite future!

[Graphite]

Don't have much to add to the balance discussion except that iron ore really loses any and all appeal in the later game, even moreso than coal used to be. It just becomes one of those "out of the way, stupid iron ore, I'm mining cobble here" kind of materials >.>

[FlowerChild]

Thanks for all the comments guys. The feedback is much appreciated, and I've been reading through every post in detail.

And yes, this is indeed a big difference from the way things were going a few weeks ago. Glad to see that people have had a chance to adjust and are really beginning to appreciate the way the mod plays now.

It would seems that most observations are now based around areas where people would like to see the difficulty increased rather than decreased :)

Don't have much to add to the balance discussion except that iron ore really loses any and all appeal in the later game, even moreso than coal used to be. It just becomes one of those "out of the way, stupid iron ore, I'm mining cobble here" kind of materials >.>

Yeah, that's almost inevitable, and has been since mobs started dropping armor.

Really, once you acquire a mob-trap, you're done with mining iron, and that's by design.

[Six]

I've been playing a fair bit of the late game on a populated server and.. it feels great. I like that after a whole lot of work, HC spawn has largely been mitigated, in that when you spawn you can generally find some signs of construction nearby and if you are lucky a road back to spawn.

One of the few things that does feel a bit off to me is creeper damage. Part of it is that it varies so much, where you take light touch if on the edge of the explosion (which is fine) up to a ridiculous amount when very close (even on Normal, which all of the following refers to). Generally creepers will try to walk up to the player and explode at a range where the damage is moderate, killing an unarmored player, but survivable with full leather. But if the creeper approaches by coming around a corner or dropping down onto the player from above, the damage is way way more, killing a full leather player or dropping a full iron player down to around 1 heart, which is easily lost when falling after being exploded into the air, or already missing beforehand.

My problem with those deaths is that they just don't feel fun. There is no scramble to try and block off enemies running at you, no attempting to beat back that final hit that will kill you. It's just an instant death, because a creeper came around a corner while you were looking the other way. It's those kinds of deaths which also seem to be the main cause of 'death fatigue' I've seen in people LPing the early game.

[FlowerChild]

My problem with those deaths is that they just don't feel fun. There is no scramble to try and block off enemies running at you, no attempting to beat back that final hit that will kill you. It's just an instant death, because a creeper came around a corner while you were looking the other way.

See...I don't really feel that way about it. While I agree there's not a heck of a lot you can do once the creeper pops around a corner, I know that my own playstyle has evolved to make sure to check corners and be aware of entry points into the area that I occupy, almost in a house-clearing military style.

If you treat darkened corridors cautiously (as I feel you should), this just doesn't happen. I honestly can't remember the last time I was killed by a creeper, other than an unfortunate incident where I stepped through a nether portal and instantly got blown up on the other side (which did feel cheap, but I also felt like I could have prevented it had I been aware it could happen).

So, to me, there IS something the player can do about it, but it comes down to prevention rather than combat tactics. Personally, I think creepers are a big part of why spelunking is nerve-wracking at present, so I don't think I'd want to change that.

[brab]

I cannot comment on the later parts of the tech tree, as I keep dying, but there is one thing you achieved with hardcore spawn that I really like: one starts over when dying, but one starts over in the same world. This give a dwarf fortress feel to the game: losing (dying) is fun (HC hunger and tools make the early game, and hostile mobs, a very nice challenge), but the impact one had on the world is not lost. I'm in no hurry to find my almost food-sustaining main base (mushrooms and pumpkins), but knowing it is there makes me go and play some more, to continue the game/story I've invested some time in.

[BobSlingblade679]

As far as early game and profression, I see no no issues. The only things I think still need work are dinners and milk. I've never made dinners except to try them out. Your earlier post about using the nether to find villages means that it is almost certain that by the time we find two-three villages, we already have enough iron for a cauldron (I always have) and that's the only reason I can see to make it- not having a cauldron.

The recipes for milk seem lackluster given how long cows take to regenerate it. I've tried the recipes for scrambled eggs and cream of mushroom and it felt too tedious to milk cows for it with my one bucket when I could simply mix eggs with shrooms and receiev what felt to be more return.

[Six]

See...I don't really feel that way about it. While I agree there's not a heck of a lot you can do once the creeper pops around a corner, I know that my own playstyle has evolved to make sure to check corners and be aware of entry points into the area that I occupy, almost in a house-clearing military style.

Yeah, fair enough. I've changed my playstyle to deal with it as well, but I'd say I'm less 'house-clearing military style' and more 'paranoid schizophrenic'. Even when going out in the day I cautiously approach any broken sight lines and keep spinning around when I think I hear something. As for caves, I mostly stay out of those unless necessary.

[Elensaar]

I have to agree with others that have posted before about diamonds feeling almost "cheaty" now. I used an iron pickaxe to get my first few diamonds, and from then on the only time I use iron tools is when I need redstone for a compass after some accident throws me into the wild unknown. I feel that the iron-diamond transition could stand a slight extension.

[FlowerChild]

Oh boy oh boy oh boy.

I had a bit of a brain-storm with regards to early game tool balance (part the diamond stuff you guys have mentioned, part other things I've been contemplating) earlier today, and just implemented and tried it out in game.

There's a certain kind of balance that you achieve where you suddenly hear an angelic choir and your nipples start quivering in response. This was one such moment :)

So yeah...with regards to the whole iron vs diamond thing: don't worry...got it covered ;)

[Thalarctia]

There's a certain kind of balance that you achieve where you suddenly hear an angelic choir and your nipples start quivering in response. This was one such moment :)

Now I can't resist asking... How do you code so quickly only using one hand?

[The Phoenixian]

I've had two noteworthy observations in my playing.

The torch changes have made coal more feel valuable, to the point where when building I find myself turning whatever I can into nethercoal, but I've only found it to be a bottleneck in the early game. In the early game aboveground, I am prompted to create tree farms for furnace fuel and keep coal to the uses for which it it has no replacement. When mining underground, I feel like my supply of wood, food, and inventory space is far more limiting than coal; I make a point to light caves up thoroughly and, so long as I remember to mine every piece, each vein allows me to explore enough cave to bring in about twice as much coal as I spent on torches. In (pre-automation)nether coal production, Soulurn/Hellfire production seems more limiting than coal, mostly due to the time investment required in making urns. I feel happy with it overall.

Abandoned Mineshafts seem heavily affected by the recent changes. The comparative abundance of iron in them makes mining there quite valuable,once one has the tech requirements to extract it, and the abundance of wood extends my ability to resupply torches considerably but it's offset by the one-hit-cripple ability of cave spider poison . Given that I feel prompted to create a brewing stand and crucible, I'd say that it feels like a midgame cave now. (I had briefly considered keeping milk on hand but given my own point on the tech tree and the limited inventory space it didn't seem worth it.)

[savagelung]

Given that I feel prompted to create a brewing stand and crucible, I'd say that it feels like a midgame cave now.

In my experience, I have to disagree.

I've found that abandoned mineshafts, particularly those near bedrock-level (which one is prone to encounter while branch mining), are much safer than normal caving. Because paths are fixed and linear, mobs are unlikely to sneak up on you. The fence posts can also be used to exploit mob pathing and creeper/skeleton line-of-sight, making battles safer. You are surrounded by wood and plenty of coal and iron is exposed, giving you a virtually endless supply of torches and tools.

While cave spiders are the biggest danger, avoiding them is fairly easy if you pay attention to spider sound and keep an eye out for the telltale cobwebs. I've encountered 3 cave spider spawners so far and haven't been poisoned once. You can even use fence posts to create openings for spawner-busting or torch-placement that the spiders can't pass through.

It feels like there is a mismatch between risk/reward in mineshaft exploration. They are full of goodies: smeltable minecarts, melon seeds, iron/gold ingots in chests, a huge supply of rails, lots of exposed ore. The risk is, of course, that they are hard to navigate and death basically guarantees that you lose your inventory. However, I've never felt very threatened in abandoned mineshafts.

[chaoticneutral]

Well, I've made a new game and I'm doing a play-through: default configs, normal difficulty, normal biomes, embarked in a forest. Here are my thoughts about the gameplay, after six MC days.

• The "nomadic phase" people often talk about here isn't really a necessity. I just settled after spawning, near the spawn point.
• I'm not missing the ability of repair tools at all. On the contrary, my inventory isn't cluttered by almost-broken tools anymore.
• Early game building focus shifted from 'looking pretty' to 'ugly but effective'.
• The need to explore is a bit higher than it was before the recent HC modes, due to food. But it's coming progressive and naturally.
• When digging, in the beginning, my progress was halted because I found exactly one lump of coal. However, coal ore is so abundant that I found some more just taking a bit of risk and digging a bit more.
• Using half-slabs to avoid mob spawning feels "cheating" now, in the lack of torches.
• Day-work vs. night-work is clearly defined - one's for wood and food, the other for digging and smelting. It comes naturally, since daytime is precious.
• I ate a red mushroom just for the kicks. The poison was punishing enough to avoid doing it again for no good reason, but not to rule them out as desperation food.
• Rain was always an annoyance for me in Minecraft, it usually meant a really longer night with background noise. HC beds accentuate this feel a bit, but the rains I endured lasted relatively little.
• Oak growing behavior is starting to feel off, when compared with other trees. Possible exploit: since it grows side-to-side, unlike birch and pine, it's possible to skip building a decent wall by just planting some oak saplings in a row, and due to the leaves, it's effective even against spiders.
• Before the recent HC changes, when I heard mobs, I would try to find the cave, spam torches and fight the mobs already there. This feels foolish now, the cave needs to be "conquered", and previous preparation is needed.
• Stone age is far longer. But there's no hurry for reaching the 27 iron nuggets.
• Killing animals is a no-brain now - if I don't do it, the zombies will.

In short: for now, oak growing conditions, half-slabs not spawning mobs and rain feel a bit off IMHO, but the rest is wonderful - challenging and rewarding.

[hungerbug]

I'll refrain from posting things that are awesome and only post about things that feel "off". I'll try and be as brief as possible. Keep in mind, this is just my opinion of what feels off and I realize most of these things are not subject to change.

It feels off that doors and ancient manuscripts are not stackable, while things like signs and fence gates are. Saddles are beginning to build up in my chests as well.

I tend not to use clocks beyond aesthetic purposes in deep cavern "homes". The purpose they serve is of little value for me.

The same goes towards maps. Rarely do I use them for their true purpose: to find my way. They look amazing when hung up together and give me something to do later on in the game (I have a "map" room in most of my larger bases). I don't have much to complain about them and honestly I'd appreciate them not changing, not that this affects your course of action towards them ;)

I know this was mentioned but shear cost feels off. Being a nomad, they are useful for getting grass to capture cows. Their cost is simply not worth it for a nomad.

I've only used the screwpump post-iron change once, and smelted it back down after testing it out. I realized the cost of having a pipe system pumping to a taller tower is simply too high.

An interesting development is quartz in redstone things like turntable. Gathering quartz in the nether feels wrong, but maybe that's because I never really had to mine there before. Maybe it's the fact that mining netherrack is nearly instant.

Diamonds. I'll refrain from going into detail since you already got it covered, but I'm glad you are changing it up.

On a final note, it's only when I sit down and nitpick at the mod when small things like this come up. The majority of the game is a pleasant fun and balanced experience. It takes some time to regear from vMC towards this game. When I talk about BTW to other people, I both warn them and try to excite them over the rebalances. It really is a total conversion. Being a newcomer to the forums, I'm almost afraid to waste your time thanking you for this game which you provide for free. You clearly put a huge amount of time into developing it over a couple years time. You bring back the excitement that once came with watching vMC development in alpha and early beta. I look on these forums at least a couple times a week to see what's new. Once again, thanks man. Keep being brilliant

[Simurgh]

Gates not breaking to zombies is a bit of an immersion breaker. I'm protecting hidey holes with gates followed by a door which I hate myself for doing as it feels gamey as hell - I'm sure I also saw an LP where someone was a trapdoor in a similar way.

Poison and burning from cave spiders and blazes respectively are really debilitating. One hit from either and you retreat and afk for a few mins to heal up. The lack of a healing mechanism besides potions adds to this.

Pigs do not feel to me like particularly useful animals, especially since they need a very rare crop or quite a late game technology to reproduce and provide only meat in return so I've been butchering any and all on sight, not caring about keeping a breeding stock. This wounld'nt bother me in vanilla, but with BTW being so cohesive everything has a place and there is a place for everything...but not pigs.

Minecart chests in mineshafts give a lot of iron when smelted in a crucible, or just save you a lot of iron cost if you have anything to use a minecart for.

Setting up an early game mushroom farm was an immense pain and the return on the time spent was pretty minimal - but this is because of the convoluted rules for mushroom spawning in vanilla. I ended up scrapping the whole thing for an if/when I get mycelium occasion.

Also a bit of an anticlimax is villages going out and exploring the world for in game days just to find one. I grabbed the wheat and promptly forgot the village existed. I'd love a reason to keep visiting or set up base nearby (with the added bonus goal of protecting the town, setting up defences for them, etc) other than just doing it "because". I know you're working on that though and can't wait to see what you've got in store for us.

*edit* Oh and with the armour tweaks making wearing armour undesirable, Endermen are now properly fucking scary. I love it!

[johnt]

Oak growing behavior is starting to feel off, when compared with other trees. Possible exploit: since it grows side-to-side, unlike birch and pine, it's possible to skip building a decent wall by just planting some oak saplings in a row, and due to the leaves, it's effective even against spiders.

I actually just think this is clever. It's actually not that hard to throw a wall of cobblestone up.

This reminds me that the thing with zombies busting down doors but not being able to bust down gates is kind of weird, but on the other hand, I like being able to build a fence around my front door so I don't have to worry about zombies busting in on me.

[FlowerChild]

Zombies vs trap doors is already something on my todo list, and which I've mentioned before. No worries there.

[Gabecraft1234]

Just a minor lose end, but currently the only way to obtain apples is villager trading.