Hardcore Modes impacting overall balence

[OldMarriedDude]

I have to say I totally agree with this. The new style of play seems to demand an awful lot of time (and patience) to advance to the 'real' building stage (esp. large scale automation), the part I find most rewarding.

Yes it does take a lot of time but I use this time to Build walls, dig out the underside of my mob trap, cut trees, and in general build up resources so when I hit the "build stage" I wont need to stop to get resources.

[DiamondArms]

Yes it does take a lot of time but I use this time to Build walls, dig out the underside of my mob trap, cut trees, and in general build up resources so when I hit the "build stage" I wont need to stop to get resources.

The point is that to get all these resources you have to leave the establishment. Which means time spent outside, away from your base, not inside your base being productive.

[OldMarriedDude]

The point is that to get all these resources you have to leave the establishment. Which means time spent outside, away from your base, not inside your base being productive.

Really? on my new world I traveled an hour from spawn and collected what I needed - saplings mushrooms ect and an hr back killing everything that i could eat. When I got back to my spawn area I started building a base. I hid local animals in a hole for later breeding. when I got low on food I traveled a different direction for an hr then back following the same actions as my first trip. I did this every time I got low on food, eventually i had what I needed to breed animals, had my wolves, all 4 kinds of trees. Now I can concentrate on building my base and stockpiling raw materials.

[DiamondArms]

Really? on my new world I traveled an hour from spawn and collected what I needed - saplings mushrooms ect and an hr back killing everything that i could eat. When I got back to my spawn area I started building a base. I hid local animals in a hole for later breeding. when I got low on food I traveled a different direction for an hr then back following the same actions as my first trip. I did this every time I got low on food, eventually i had what I needed to breed animals, had my wolves, all 4 kinds of trees. Now I can concentrate on building my base and stockpiling raw materials.

The point still stands, being that leaving the base is necessary to progress, unless you have the ability to work on your base while not actually being there. Your comment states that you travel for an hour away from your base, collecting supplies along the way, and work on your base when you return.

[OldMarriedDude]

Well of course, I have to leave to get what i consider to be necessary,; however, this just adds to the enjoyment of the game. What I consider necessary really isnt a requirement tho.

[Padfoote]

The point still stands, being that leaving the base is necessary to progress, unless you have the ability to work on your base while not actually being there.

I'm currently on a server with my friend and we managed to get a stable food supply without going more than 200 blocks from spawn. And that's with just chickens and hemp seeds. You don't HAVE to leave base to progress; leaving and finding wheat / potatoes / carrots simply makes life easier, but it isn't a requirement to progress. If you don't want to leave, then slaughter the cows and pigs around base. This gives you the leather you need for saws and bellows, as well as a bit of extra food. Depending on the biome you spawn in, wolves might be right there too.

In all, finding the other foods aren't required to progress, it simply depends on your play style and what kind of food you want to have available. Wolves are the only reason I see for having to leave base, and that comes down to what biome you spawn in originally.

Counter arguments against this may include Bloodwood and Groth; Both of these aren't required to advance in any way. Groth is another way to terraform the Nether and make mob trap creation easier. Bloodwood is another source for wood and soul urns. It's very possible to advance without either of these, but they simply make MC life easier and more diversified.

The point is that to get all these resources you have to leave the establishment. Which means time spent outside, away from your base, not inside your base being productive.

This, however, comes down to what you personally view as being productive. For myself, it's establishing a base and automating. For my friend, it's adventuring around finding all the plants and animals that there are, as well as setting up massive branch mines.

Well of course, I have to leave to get what i consider to be necessary,; however, this just adds to the enjoyment of the game. What I consider necessary really isnt a requirement tho.

I completely agree with you here; The same argument can be made with automation. It isn't required at all, yet it adds to the enjoyment of the game.

[Shengji]

I still don't understand how a reasonably experienced player can sit there, knowing what happens as hunger approaches and still manage to starve to death. Maybe I'm just really good at this style of play, maybe I've just been really lucky since the new mechanics were added but honestly, the only time I starved to death was out of curiosity. Sure I've been forced to take risks because I've miscalculated how much food I need to get through the night or taken a wrong turn after a days hunting on the way home, but hair raising as it was, it's been an absolute blast!

Maybe this rundown will help:

Stage 1: Survive!

Day 1:- Priority: collect enough to survive the night.

How:
1: Punch trees to collect minimum of 9 wood
2: Use one wood to make 4 planks, then turn them into a workbench
3: use 4 wood to make 12 sticks and 8 planks. Build 2 shovels and 2 picks
5: Dig down in a staircase, I like a 3x3 spiral, till you reach stone. Collect 14 stone
6: Build a stone axe and a stone pick.
7: Find and kill the closest of the following: Chickens, cows, sheep or pigs. Stick to the same type of animal until you have a stack of 8 (It's more fuel efficient to cook the same type of meat)
8: Find a home - think about a treetop, especially in jungle biomes, a hole or a dirt tower. Don't go mad with dirt towers, just make sure it is spider proof and has cover from skeletons. You do want to gather a cluster of mobs at the bottom if possible.

This takes me until about midday. Optional extras: Collect more wood, stone, surface coal, food and sugar canes, cacti etc.

Night 1: By this point, I am on 4-6 on my hunger bar because I haven't sprinted, jumped too much or swam. Night time priority is to not starve.

1: Place your forge and workbench, use your remaining wood to cook all your meat. Remember to put your meat in first to maximise your wood.

2: Eat the meat as it comes out until you are full. Wait until morning, as motionless as possible. Eat just as the monsters burn to start the day on a full stomach.

3: Ditch any crap you've collected, anything which takes up inventory space but can't be used directly for survival is crap at this stage. Stuff like sand, more than one stack of dirt/cobble

Optional extras: Well that very much depends what optional extra resources you collected the day before, what sort of home you're in etc. If I can access stone, I will start a mini stripmine, being careful not to stray far from my base in case a mob spawns in it. I am searching obviously for coal and iron. I will also hunt spiders in search of string.

I will repeat day 1 & night 1 ensuring that I start every day with more food than the day before, a better collection of tools than the day before, more material that I will need when I actually do settle for as long as it takes. In reality, I can achieve this in 1-3 nights and then the search is on for that perfect location. This is stage 2: The nomad stage

Stage 2: Nomad: Priority - Find utopia

This stage can literally last no time at all if you are happy to settle right where you are. Be aware that there are times when you will need to nomad, e.g. after death, in search of resources, so it's worth practising this stage as well.

Day: Priority. Search as much ground as possible. Continue to increase your food supply - don't push yourself too far and screw yourself over. Kill every animal in your path without going out of your way. Collect it's meat. You will quickly take enough for the day/night, all the extra is profit! Collect easy resources, ignore harder ones - different biomes make different resources easy to get!

Stage 3: Settle Down in your perfect farm!

Don't settle down until you are ready! Going to subsist off mushrooms, make sure you can immediately plant enough which will supply you with enough. Make sure you are able to farm enough to make meals, not just plain meat or single foods! This is key or you! If you don't have the crops to do this, move on. Look up how compound interest works, you start with a little and the gains are minute. Look at this:

Assuming a mushroom produces 1 mushroom every 2 days and that 32 mushrooms is sustainable:

Plant 1 mushroom:
Day 1: 1
Day 2: 1
Day 3: 2
Day 4: 3
Day 5: 4
Day 6: 6
Day 7: 8
Day 8: 12
Day 9: 16
Day 10: 24
Day 11: 32

Plant 7 Mushrooms:

Day 1: 7
Day 2: 10
Day 3: 15
Day 4: 22
Day 5: 33


Experienced players can make this work but until dying of starvation is a novelty for you, stay nomad, don't try to rely on simple single foods.

Don't over extend. Start by water, at a minimum you need this for your hemp farm which you will want to get going straight away. Look at your coal stock, make sure you can light it all. By all means plan that colossal fortress, but it's foolish to build it while struggling to feed yourself.

Never forget you can go out on nomadic forays if it isn't working. Don't sit there waiting for mushrooms to grow whilst starving to death, build an axe and go temporarily nomad. Place markers to easily find your way home and return with an inventory full of food and stuff to plant!

Gathering animals is a huge job. There are several ways to tackle this, get creative!

Every project you take on should improve your capacity to produce food at first, forget building that Mongolian temple in praise of notch for the minute, extend your farm, think about simple automations to make your life easier. There will come a time, I promise that those giant building projects can be tackled and you will never look back, and more than that, you can feel even more proud of your constructions.

Check the wiki for the ages of BTW to continue your progression - I think you'll find you'll want that windmill even without wheat - you'll want to use a saw at some point and probably scour your leather in one too.

I genuinely hope this helps, if you can't find the fun in this style of game, I can't help you. As to your final question "So why not play creative one might point out" I couldn't agree more with your answer and it is for that reason alone I have created this post over the course of an hour after a miserable day at work. There is hope for you, I think you could truly appreciate BTW for what it is without cheating yourself in one wheat seed and one carrot - just think, if you give yourself this, you will cheat your way past all of the above hours of gameplay, and it is disrespectful to refer to it as a grind. Without that early game, you will cheat yourself out of the most incredible feeling of achievement. You know how amazing you feel when you complete your dream castle, by playing properly you will get the same sense of achievement when you build a tiny 1 torch treehouse. But unlike old BTW, where that was as good as it got, now, you know that the giant dream castle will make you feel like a literal minecraft god! You'll strut about your parapets looking out over the wilderness, a wilderness full of memories of adventures, adventures you had surviving, finding that wheat and carrot, adventures you had because you had to have them to live. I don't know how that isn't far more exciting than starting the game, walling yourself in to a tiny patch and watching your cheatwheat slowly grow.

[Shengji]

The point is that to get all these resources you have to leave the establishment. Which means time spent outside, away from your base, not inside your base being productive.

So why not play on peaceful? If you never leave your base, mobs are irrelevant to you anyway, then you don't have to worry about starving to death either and can sit in your base being as productive (whatever that means) as you like.

Leaving your base to collect resources is being productive. You are going from a state of not having something to having it and you have an adventure on the way. Win win.

I get that you find the end game the most rewarding, but wouldn't you find it even more rewarding if you earn't it and had a lot of fun doing so? Let me ask, what do you do when you've finished the tech tree? What exactly is the point of SFS to you?

[DiamondArms]

The point still stands, being that leaving the base is necessary to progress, unless you have the ability to work on your base while not actually being there.

I'm currently on a server with my friend and we managed to get a stable food supply without going more than 200 blocks from spawn. And that's with just chickens and hemp seeds. You don't HAVE to leave base to progress; leaving and finding wheat / potatoes / carrots simply makes life easier, but it isn't a requirement to progress. If you don't want to leave, then slaughter the cows and pigs around base. This gives you the leather you need for saws and bellows, as well as a bit of extra food. Depending on the biome you spawn in, wolves might be right there too.\

Fair enough, but for those who want to fully experience the tech tree, going out is a must. it's an FC-intended constraint, but hard on those who are unable to play for extended periods. Such is the unfortunate life.
Leaving base to progress may not be necessary, but it is definitely important, especially if building and expanding is planned. resources are finite, so becoming self-sufficient is very much needed for extended progress, without going out whenever you run out of a certain renewable resource.

In all, finding the other foods aren't required to progress, it simply depends on your play style and what kind of food you want to have available. Wolves are the only reason I see for having to leave base, and that comes down to what biome you spawn in originally.

Counter arguments against this may include Bloodwood and Groth; Both of these aren't required to advance in any way. Groth is another way to terraform the Nether and make mob trap creation easier. Bloodwood is another source for wood and soul urns. It's very possible to advance without either of these, but they simply make MC life easier and more diversified.

Food variety is actually debatable as to whether it is needed. monoculture is viable, but it has low replenishment and consumes time spent getting the food and eating it. The point of having higher tier foods is that you spend less time eating and less space carrying food. For convenience's sake, farm resources are needed, but not necessary. It's like the difference between drinking a potion and splash potions. You could take time to get the full effect(drinking potions/getting more foods), or do it the faster but more inefficient way(splash Potions/monoculture). weighing the cost and benefits of using one over the other is important, even if not absolutely needed.

Sure, Bloodwood and Groth are not absolutely necessary, but they are extremely practical. Groth is the reasonable method of preventing nether mobspawns, as opposed to manually covering the area or not covering it at all. It may take more effort to get, but its more practical. Bloodwood is a wood alternative for those who expand operations in the nether, which is more practical than needing to return to the overworld when wood runs out.

The point is that to get all these resources you have to leave the establishment. Which means time spent outside, away from your base, not inside your base being productive.

This, however, comes down to what you personally view as being productive. For myself, it's establishing a base and automating. For my friend, it's adventuring around finding all the plants and animals that there are, as well as setting up massive branch mines.

Based on OldMarriedDude's opinion, base development is the idea. However, base development needs resources. Those can take extended periods to get, most of which will be spent getting further and further away from your base. There is a limit to what you can do with limited exploration.

Well of course, I have to leave to get what i consider to be necessary,; however, this just adds to the enjoyment of the game. What I consider necessary really isnt a requirement tho.

I completely agree with you here; The same argument can be made with automation. It isn't required at all, yet it adds to the enjoyment of the game.

For the sake of the argument, let's say experiencing all the mod's beneficial aspects is the goal.

Most of the tech tree is necessary for those who want to be able to build without worries. Farms are needed for sustainable and convenient materials to continue building. which requires tech. which requires going out into the world. Also, the world could also screw you over and place villages in intervals wide enough to make travel a long and arduous journey.

Settling down without extensive exploring is definitely viable, but becomes a dismissal of what the mod has to offer. "Don't like it, Don't do it" is not the goal of the mod, as FC has added many interesting objects to work with. Trying to make do otherwise results in the point of the mod being lost. Yes, going out into the world and getting resources is now an achievement. Yes, there will be people who are unlucky enough to need to struggle harder than others to get these materials. Yes, there will be people who don't like that. Such is life. The gameplay experience becomes a struggle to enjoy, which is fun for some, but not all. Trying to escape the need for resource gathering is where the big issue is. Some can do it, some can't. FC has done a lovely job of extending the early game, and made mid-late game a big thing. Problem is getting there can be tough. Satisfying, but not viable for the less invested. Which is sad, because the less invested can respect and enjoy what the mod offers, but at the price of extended invested suffering.

World Gen is actually the worst enemy for anyone trying to fully enjoy the mod, as structure generation heavily affects the gameplay experience. even with Village desertification, other structures can make or break your game, depending on your playstyle. Those who enjoy the early game have their progress thrown forward, while those who don't can end up just not being able to find the resources they need

The point is that to get all these resources you have to leave the establishment. Which means time spent outside, away from your base, not inside your base being productive.

So why not play on peaceful? If you never leave your base, mobs are irrelevant to you anyway, then you don't have to worry about starving to death either and can sit in your base being as productive (whatever that means) as you like.

peaceful actually obstructs the progress of the mod, as mob loots like bones are needed to progress, and unless you luck out and find a temple with such loot, progress is not viable.
It's not about never leaving the base, but Leaving the Base to find resources vs. Staying in the base and building/fortifying. which is more worthwhile?

Leaving your base to collect resources is being productive. You are going from a state of not having something to having it and you have an adventure on the way. Win win.

The problem lies in traveling not being a viable option due to time constraints. when you only have pockets of time to play, how much can you achieve without losing track of what you were doing? Going out to get resources is good, but not having the time to do so is limiting.

I get that you find the end game the most rewarding, but wouldn't you find it even more rewarding if you earn't it and had a lot of fun doing so? Let me ask, what do you do when you've finished the tech tree? What exactly is the point of SFS to you?

Experiencing the full journey of the mod is part of the experience. It is rewarding, after investing loads of time into making everything cool and getting top tier items and structures. What if you could not reach the end due to not being able to get certain requirements? Finishing the tech tree only comes when progressing in the tech tree is possible. After that, what you do is your business. Take diamonds for example. finding them may seem easy, but it is also very hit and miss. strip mining for them is possible, but digging up the whole underground looking for them is somewhat unreasonable, especially if they just happen to not generate near enough to feasibly dig. SFS is a great achievement, being the top tier of material, but requires many other things to come together. if any of those things are missing, getting SFS is not possible. if one cannot get everything within their own constraints, then reaching the endgame is not possible, thus enjoying the endgame is not too.

[FlowerChild]

This thread is getting circular and painful with simple arguments that could be summed up in a line or two being made with walls of text.

if one cannot get everything within their own constraints, then reaching the endgame is not possible, thus enjoying the endgame is not too.

Then don't. Enjoy the early game. Enjoy the mid. Enjoy another game.

Your argument seems to boil down to "no matter the amount of time I invest I should be able to experience the entire mod".

That's great. I have five minutes to play, and want everything now. Why is FC cutting me off from experiencing everything BTW has to offer?

Come on man...think through what you're saying.

[TheGatesofLogic]

Actually there is a better option that appears to be wholly invisible to a large portion of players: the nether. Establishing a quick base near spawn is extremely easy and gathering enough iron for an iron pick doesn't actually take that much time. Subsisting on meat from around spawn can last you weeks if you are smart with it. Go for diamonds early. It is a perfectly acceptable route and shouldn't feel gamey at all. Build a portal then venture out a ways in the ovrrworld to gather food for a journey. Once you have the necessary food head into the nether and journey straight in one direction for about 500 blocks and put a portal down. You have just travelled outside the radius of abandoned villages! Congratulations! Now celebrate with some rum!

The real implication here is that one must now progress through the vanilla tech shrub (albeit slightly altered by flowerchild) and go to and return from the Slip in order to encounter beings that are thus far unmolested by steve's appearance in this realm. Ultimately this removes what you assume to be a major time loss for your impatient mind. (oh, and yes, I DO call the nether 'The Slip', it's much cooler given its nature and relation to travel IMO)

[DiamondArms]

Then don't. Enjoy the early game. Enjoy the mid. Enjoy another game.

Your argument seems to boil down to "no matter the amount of time I invest I should be able to experience the entire mod".

That's great. I have five minutes to play, and want everything now. Why is FC cutting me off from experiencing everything BTW has to offer?

Come on man...think through what you're saying.

I have no problems with enjoying the early game. Or the mid. It's not about reaching the endgame, it's the progress.

I have never blamed you for "cutting off" the experience. the question i have is "I have Five Minutes. What can I feasibly achieve without breaking everything down into sessions?"

What have you guys managed to achieve within a few minutes that is not dependent on variables like World Gen or Drop rates?
I would honestly like to know, so I can figure out what works and what doesn't in my playstyle.

[FlowerChild]

The real implication here is that one must nowprogress through the vanilla tech shrub (albeit slightly altered by flowerchild) and go to and return from the Slip in order to encounter beings that are thus far unmolested by steve's appearance in this realm.

I'm so happy this is now becoming somewhat common knowledge :)

Because yes, part of the intent of the whole abandoned village thing was to further integrate the nether into tech progression.

[Padfoote]

I have no problems with enjoying the early game. Or the mid. It's not about reaching the endgame, it's the progress.

I have never blamed you for "cutting off" the experience. the question i have is "I have Five Minutes. What can I feasibly achieve without breaking everything down into sessions?"

What have you guys managed to achieve within a few minutes that is not dependent on variables like World Gen or Drop rates?
I would honestly like to know, so I can figure out what works and what doesn't in my playstyle.

For achievements within a few minutes, I did a refit of my kiln to allow for charcoal production in about three minutes. I expanded a vine farm. Made another floor to my mob trap. The possibilities here are endless.

It comes down to what you think you need in order to play. Yes, food is a need; however, what kind of food that you use is determined by what you're willing to work for. For the server I'm on, we spent our first week eating melons or each other because we didn't care what food we had. We just recently got wheat through a lucky break, and it hasn't made any difference to us. We use whatever little we get to breed cows, and even then we don't kill our cows. We still rely heavily on melons, as well as the odd mushroom and mystery meat. This isn't meant to be a quick rush to the very end of the tech tree, and it isn't fun to rush to that point.

If you want to try out a different play style to see the difference it can make, then work within base. Expand your base, plant whatever farms you can, and build more with axles and gearboxes to allow for easier expansion later on. If you don't have a lot of time, do something simple that will do a lot for you later on. Doing a kiln refit to allow for charcoal production doesn't seem like much, but it just removed our dependence on finding coal. Adding that one extra floor to a mobtrap just reduced dependency on mining iron (or alternatively gold if you're in the Nether). Expanding a wheat farm to a second field just opened up the opportunity to automate a cow farm later. Every single step is building up to the top of the tech tree, and all of these can be done when you have the time.

Shortened version: Don't focus on rushing to the top. Work with what you have, and work on moving up within your base. Don't focus on large goals, focus on the small pieces that can allow you to reach those large goals.

[Holycobra]

I've been following along on this thread and wanted to say thanks for your responces to this guy..gal..person. I've actually learned a few things from here.
This is the first time I've seen someone mention needing to slow down in BTW, and I needed to see that I was starting to get rather impatient.

So.... thanks from the new guy!

Oh, I saw apples mentioned.. I don't think there's a way to obtain them until another release.. right? I'm pretty sure trees don't drop them any more.

edit:spelling

[Nuchiha]

I've been following along on this thread and wanted to say thanks for your responces to this guy..gal..person. I've actually learned a few things from here.
This is the first time I've seen someone mention needing to slow down in BTW, and I needed to see that I was starting to get rather impatient.

So.... thanks from the new guy!

Oh, I saw apples mentioned.. I don't think there's a way to obtain them until another release.. right? I'm pretty sure trees don't drop them any more.

edit:spelling

Oh I've gotten them plenty of times in 1.5.1. Although very rarely, they're still there.

[Mud]

Oh I've gotten them plenty of times in 1.5.1. Although very rarely, they're still there.

Now for a less cryptic response:

You can still get apples from chests and village trades.

[Holycobra]

Oh I've gotten them plenty of times in 1.5.1. Although very rarely, they're still there.

Oh, just my luck then. Thanks!

[grimper12341]

I'll something more detailed later when I have more time, but for now I'll it simple.

I agree with most of what the OP says, for me BTW is getting a little too grindy. I only have a couple of hours a day to play, and right now *all* of this time is spent trying to acquire basic resources like food and iron, instead of doing fun stuff. Depending on my luck, it's going to take weeks to get a nice base going, which before would have taken only a few days.

[FlowerChild]

Ok, given I have no cheese to serve with this thread, I'll just lock it down.

[FlowerChild]

Oh, I will add this though...in response to the thread title:

Correct.