Vanilla Feature court - Session 1 - Analog Redstone

[FlowerChild]

Actually, the idea of analogue redstone is kinda neat, the first time I used it, I thought that dispenser and such responded differently to different input strength, and pressure plates had different output levels, before realizing that there was no way of manipulate a signal level in logic gates (both torches and repeaters reset the signal strength). In fact, Mojang implemented it in a very inelegant way (the comparator), while they could simply do some version of the torch that responded to a signal p with a signal (1-p), and that would have sufficed. So I'm not totally opposed, but I don't like how it turned out.

The big problem with the above kind of stuff, is that if they had implemented it in this way, it would instantly break any builds that used the blocks in their old behavior.

Can you imagine the chaos for example if dispensers or pistons suddenly stopped firing because the input signal was too low?

This is another reason why I feel if they were going to include analog in MC, it really needed to be a brand new system. Then, the old blocks could have been retrofitted to respond to the new signal type without any build breakage whatsoever.

Instead, we are left with what is basically a half-ass implementation where only new blocks that are added to the game will respond to variable signal strength, making it feel very much like a tacked-on addition to the game rather than how it's actually supposed to work.

This is another problem I'm looking at here, as I suspect "doing it right" in this case would mean me adding on a brand new system to the game because the way it's done now is pretty frigging lame, and has very little potential for improvement.

[Azdoine]

Analog Redstone is a cool idea. The implementation, however, is very poorly designed and isn't anything we couldn't do in BTW without some tinkering (at least as far as I can tell).

Personally, I wouldn't want to waste my time on this. Make of my opinion what you will.

[chaoticneutral]

Trying to be as succinct as possible.

The concept isn't bad per se, but my question is... why?

Redstone always worked as a binary signal. Does changing this really add value to MC? And most new features in 1.5 that use it would work finely without it.

I don't like mixing both signal strength (how many blocks further I can send it without a repeater) and signal value (how much it is worth).

If I saw these features in BTW? ...I don't think they would fit, but I don't think they would mess with the mod either. They don't add value for me but, on a lighter side, they don't detract it either.

[CycloneSP]

*rubs sleep out of eyes and reaches for a can of mnt dew*


Hmmm, analogue redstone, eh? Implementation aside, as if FC did decide to go with it he'd implement it right, I think the biggest hang up people have about it is the fact that we are so used to perceiving redstone as a digital device, and viewing it otherwise is rather difficult. I personally, prefer simplicity, so at the moment I would say I like the digital aspect of it better than the analogue aspect. However, that is not to say analogue redstone doesn't have potential. I would say it has quite a bit of potential, potential it will never realize if implemented by mojang.

As for your hypothetical situation. If you didn't instalock and ban, and if I was FC (which is probably a very bad idea) then I would have asked the suggester some very hardball questions in order for him to defend his suggestion and explain precisely how it would make the game so much better with its inclusion. Because to be perfectly honest, I just don't see enough concrete examples as to how it would be useful. Like I said, it has some amazing potential, but with a lack of apparent and immediate uses, it will be a long road before that potential is ever fully realized.

So, yeah, that's my take on the whole situation. I personally prefer the digital aspect because it is simple, but that is mainly because I cannot envision an analogue system in the game at the moment.

[FlowerChild]

If I saw these features in BTW? ...I don't think they would fit, but I don't think they would mess with the mod either. They don't add value for me but, on a lighter side, they don't detract it either.

That's the thing: I think that any feature that doesn't add significant value serves to detract from quality by diluting the overall package.

There's only so many low quality features you can put into a game before the high quality ones start getting lost in the mix, and Mojang has been adding an awful lot of low quality features as of late.

Sure, I can salvage *some* of those and turn them into something interesting, but fuck man, enough is enough at a certain point, and as I've mentioned before, I'm pretty sick of running around fixing their mistakes instead of working on new content. I'm still struggling "fixing" and integrating useless features back from the 1.0 release like villagers, hunger, the end dimension, and endermen, for Pete's sake, without having half-baked ideas like this thrown into the mix.

I think my overall feeling on it is this: the game didn't need this. To do it right would require an extreme amount of work. I'm not even certain I'd choose to include it in the game to begin with, even if it was done right. To leave a substandard system like this in the game detracts from the overall quality of the game, and thus the quality of BTW's gameplay experience.

So what I'm looking at is effectively reimplementing an entire system because Mojang screwed the pooch on it, when I'm not even certain I would have wanted it in the game to begin with :\

[darahalian]

My thoughts on the matter are that the effects of a redstone signal shouldn't vary depending on their power level. Redstone has had different "power levels" from the beginning, but they didn't have any effect other than limiting redstone distance. If we think about redstone the way FC has described it (as being merely signal, not energy/power) this is the way it should stay. The strength of the signal shouldn't matter as long as the signal makes it to the device that would be triggered (by its own power, not by the redstone itself).

Now, if we can assume that nether quartz has some kind of ability to measure the signal strength that is inherent in redstone, then something like the comparator makes sense (except for its ability to measure inventory, which makes no sense). However, even it makes sense, that doesn't necessarily mean it will be of much use, though savagelung did come up with a few examples.

Overall, I don't think any of the existing redstone devices should change to react differently to different redstone signal strengths, but this could be acceptable for any new blocks that use nether quartz in their recipe. I'm not sure what I think of devices outputting variable strength redstone signals, but things like gold/iron pressure plates and the light sensor just seem like gimmicks added to make use of this, and they don't seem to have any practical use. I certainly wouldn't miss them if they were ripped out.

The comparator, if all it did was compare, and maybe even only output at strength 15 like other redstone devices, would not be a bad addition to Minecraft imo. However, if the comparator as I just described it was a suggestion for BTW, my biggest question would be "why?", or "what would it add?" It just doesn't seem to have a whole lot of use other than in complex redstone contraptions. If you finally decide to axe it, I would vote to simply remove its recipe, so that people who want to can still play with it in creative, like the command block.

[FlowerChild]

If you finally decide to axe it, I would vote to simply remove its recipe, so that people who want to can still play with it in creative, like the command block.

Nah man, no way I'd do that as it would only serve to widen the gap between creative and survival play, when I'd probably prefer that the "cheat mode" offered by creative not be an official part of the game to begin with.

The command block is so "out there" in terms of functionality that I don't feel anyone considers it to really be part of the game. It's clear that any design using a command block is in no way legit. The comparator on the other hand is close enough to the rest of the functionality that me leaving it in one but taking it out of the other would only wind up further dividing the community between creative and survival players in that they'd be making devices with entirely different designs.

If I decide to rip it out, and people want to play around with it, they can play vanilla.

[Sage]

Actually, the idea of analogue redstone is kinda neat, the first time I used it, I thought that dispenser and such responded differently to different input strength, and pressure plates had different output levels, before realizing that there was no way of manipulate a signal level in logic gates (both torches and repeaters reset the signal strength). In fact, Mojang implemented it in a very inelegant way (the comparator), while they could simply do some version of the torch that responded to a signal p with a signal (1-p), and that would have sufficed. So I'm not totally opposed, but I don't like how it turned out.

The big problem with the above kind of stuff, is that if they had implemented it in this way, it would instantly break any builds that used the blocks in their old behavior.

Can you imagine the chaos for example if dispensers or pistons suddenly stopped firing because the input signal was too low?

Oh, I get this, while having true analogue redstone is somewhat a dream of mine, with all the potential and as well new problems for the player, it has to be done as a separate system, killing basically normal redstone (I think that even the worst game designer can see all the crap that this means), or be like this from the beginning.

Instead, we are left with what is basically a half-ass implementation where only new blocks that are added to the game will respond to variable signal strength, making it feel very much like a tacked-on addition to the game rather than how it's actually supposed to work.

The good part about this is that it is in fact an add-on, so you can rip it out safely, like it never existed in the first place :)

[The Phoenixian]

My problem was that Auto-Cauldrons dump out absolutely everything when they tip, processed or not, so it had occurred to me way back when that to be fully automatic they would either need to re-sort items coming out for wastage and then either moving items upwards or disposing of the unreacted stuff, or by inputting items in exact amounts.

That feature was designed with the former method in mind, and my own auto-Cauldron build within my world works precisely that way. It's really not too complicated and the intent was to further encourage the use of Platforms as item elevators.

So, for me this acts as an argument against actually, as it indicates to me that analog redstone will potentially throw many aspects of the mod out of balance by introducing methods of doing things that were never anticipated when I designed the mod's redstone blocks.

I want to say more on this but I'm not sure how. Nice to see the added post was useful to you in exactly the way I'd hoped it would be at least.

Not whether it is more powerful and useful in game. It most certainly is, and I wouldn't argue otherwise. But will it lead to us having more or less fun designing redstone devices in the future?

Okay, I'm going to make a point based on these quotes and while I think still important and relevant, I think it also opens a whole new can of worms about one of Minecraft's core aesthetics that would require it's own topic and I should also ask first: Is now an appropriate time for a something that feels like a mix between a design discussion thread and a balance and observation thread or should such a topic, so soon after the last balance and observation thread was closed, be held off for a few weeks longer?

[JakeZKAM]

I'm far from proficient in redstone, I've been slowly making the push into learning more and more, and If an analog system would complicate it further/invalidate all I've managed to learn so far I'd be pissed. I personally can't think of anything to do with analog redstone but from what I've heard it makes things easier/adds trivial additions, far from anything I'm interested in learning. If there was some kind of downside to the making it easier part that'd be fine with me but as it is it feels like cheating redstone. However if very interesting feature of redstone could come out of it, making even more things possible while still leaving previous outcomes possible (without branching the gap with some things analog and some not) I would be fine with it.

Basically makes things easier/add unimportant things = no
Adds more possibilities/doesn't break builds = yes

[FlowerChild]

Okay, I'm going to make a point based on these quotes and while I think still important and relevant, I think it also opens a whole new can of worms about one of Minecraft's core aesthetics that would require it's own topic and I should also ask first: Is now an appropriate time for a something that feels like a mix between a design discussion thread and a balance and observation thread or should such a topic, so soon after the last balance and observation thread was closed, be held off for a few weeks longer?

If it's relevant to this topic, sure man, go for it. Like I said above, I created this thread because I wanted to discuss this particular issue with the community.

This is a bit of a radical departure for the mod in my mind in that I don't think I've previously ripped out an entire system like this because I didn't like it. I see it as potentially leading to a weird situation with the mod where vanilla redstone and BTW redstone are two very different things and that designs that work in vanilla will no longer work in BTW. Given the focus on redstone this mod has had throughout most of its history, expanding upon it and improving its useability, it definitely feels rather strange to me to be ripping stuff like this out. Individual blocks like the vanilla hopper are perhaps easier for me to swallow in that regard than an entire aspect of how redstone works.

Hence why I want to talk all this through and hear other people's perspectives on it.

[chaoticneutral]

That's the thing: I think that any feature that doesn't add significant value serves to detract from quality by diluting the overall package.

I didn't see the thing from that PoV (diluting the package). Fair point.

Anyway, if you decide to axe it, I don't think I'll miss anything.

[0player]

I see no real uses for analog redstone in simple automation, but I like the idea of being able to transmit (kinda) four bits of information in one wire instead of one. The most awesome use case to me is multiple inputs over one wire circuit, which could be able to detect which input is active now and do appropriate stuff. If you feel like that's simplification compared to older way, I'd likely to point that analog circuits require much more thinking.
(I don't even know for what amazingly new controller architectures would such addition allow).
About actual implementation: I like the idea that the only block outputting variable redstone strength would be photo-diode. No variable weight sensors, please: if containers in Minecraft had inner property of weight, Steve's spine would be broken I don't know how many types. To me, weight is non-existent (also because it's unjustified to weigh iron nugget and iron block the same), as opposed to fullness. Fullness is well-defined property.
The above statement for photo-diode should, imo, apply to comparator as well. I'd make this thing output either 15 or 0 depending on if the + input is greater than -, bonus points for hysteresis when they are equal (it can be cleverly (ab)used). As one can see, both current behaivours can be modelled with an array of comparators and being good at counting, and mode I'm describing should be fine for most applications. It also disallows analog RS latch (or at least makes it damn complex), which fits nicer. (I'd also make both inputs to go to sides, but that's another story). Of course, I wouldn't make container detection for reasons described above.
Also, iron and golden pressure plates are stupid. They remind us that there are actually numbers of items not only in the containers, but in the world. If you want to count your items, well, make a counter and count them one by one with wooden plate and bellows. It's not impossible.
About photo-diode: if we're talking about addition to BTW, it already has detector blocks and lenses and all these, so I'm sure FlowerChild can integrate it into existing tech tree in a non-superficial way (which wouldn't resemble chocolate cake).
It's up to you to decide whether this value is significant or not, but I'm sure there are people out there who would be inspired by such an addition if done nicely.

[savagelung]

Also, iron and golden pressure plates are stupid. They remind us that there are actually numbers of items not only in the containers, but in the world. If you want to count your items, well, make a counter and count them one by one with wooden plate and bellows. It's not impossible.

I've never seen an application for the weighted pressure plates in survival. I'm reasonably certain they were implemented for adventure map makers (requiring a minimum item "sacrifice"), but even that purpose is made mostly obsolete by the combination of a hopper and comparator.

[The Phoenixian]

Okay, I'm going to make a point based on these quotes and while I think still important and relevant, I think it also opens a whole new can of worms about one of Minecraft's core aesthetics that would require it's own topic and I should also ask first: Is now an appropriate time for a something that feels like a mix between a design discussion thread and a balance and observation thread or should such a topic, so soon after the last balance and observation thread was closed, be held off for a few weeks longer?

If it's relevant to this topic, sure man, go for it. Like I said above, I created this thread because I wanted to discuss this particular issue with the community.

This is a bit of a radical departure for the mod in my mind in that I don't think I've previously ripped out an entire system like this because I didn't like it. I see it as potentially leading to a weird situation with the mod where vanilla redstone and BTW redstone are two very different things and that designs that work in vanilla will no longer work in BTW. Given the focus on redstone this mod has had throughout most of its history, expanding upon it and improving its useability, it definitely feels rather strange to me to be ripping stuff like this out. Individual blocks like the vanilla hopper are perhaps easier for me to swallow in that regard than an entire aspect of how redstone works.

Hence why I want to talk all this through and hear other people's perspectives on it.

Alright then: the short version I guess can be summed up as. "What is the place of the player's creative freedom in BTW?" Because I can't get a good grip on the answer, and after months of thinking about this, I can't help but think there's a wildly different value between the it and Minecraft, to which it seems fundamental.
And how it comes into play here was with that point you mentioned as less of an incentive to build item elevators once you've got a automated stewing pot: If I've built a lot of automated systems one way, or used a particular subcomponent a lot (like item elevators), how many options can I have other than this way, and will analog redstone give me new ways of playing around when I'm tired of the same old subsystems or way of working for a while? (Is it worth it for the dev time?) Especially if I'm building multiple such systems.

I'm not sure if "creative freedom" is clear so I'd liken it to the "build whatever/play however you want" part of Minecraft and the limits thereon but if that doesn't encapsulate what I mean well enough there's the long version, which is entirely tangential to this thread and all about my own personal perceptions of a lot of things, here.

[Shiverwarp]

I see it as potentially leading to a weird situation with the mod where vanilla redstone and BTW redstone are two very different things and that designs that work in vanilla will no longer work in BTW. Given the focus on redstone this mod has had throughout most of its history, expanding upon it and improving its useability, it definitely feels rather strange to me to be ripping stuff like this out.

This was my worry as well when I first started reading this thread.

However, when thinking about it more, I realize that those who would be switching from Vanilla to BTW will most likely want to start their worlds over so that they can experience a true early game, and not feel as though they've cheated the system, so the potential for breaking builds from Vanilla conversions is lessened. Those that want to keep their worlds from Vanilla will simply have to re-engineer those builds that don't work with the BTW version, and in all honesty you'd want to do this anyways to be adding in things with mechanical power.

Perhaps the focus is not on breaking builds though, and more about a "blueprint" design that people are following to create it in their own world. In this case, don't we always say restrictions breed creativity?

Either way, I feel that there will always be this split between the blocks created in Vanilla simply to make use of the analog after it has been implemented, and the old redstone, so it seems more consistent to just focus on one.

[FlowerChild]

I'm not sure if "creative freedom" is clear so I'd liken it to the "build whatever/play however you want" part of Minecraft and the limits thereon. but if that doesn't encapsulates what I mean well enough there's the long version, which is entirely tangential to this thread and all about my own personal perceptions of a lot of things, here.

I don't believe in "creative freedom" in that sense. I view my role as a designer as being one of setting the rules or constraints of the world in which people play, and thereby defining the "game" portion of Minecraft, which is something I believe Mojang has continuously failed to do under the banner of "player freedom".

To me, that isn't providing freedom, that's just representative of the absence of any kind of coherent design.

I've said it before and will say it again, player freedom begins and ends with their decision to install BTW. If they do install it, then it's with the acceptance that I will be the one defining the boundaries or rules of their play experience.

BTW: Your link is broken.

[OldMarriedDude]

I for one never play vanilla- only reason I play MC is because of BTW. Based on what I have seen of Mojangs additions to the game, this new red stone thing isnt going to be spectacular. I would prefer that you (FC) did what ever is the best thing for the mod and not worry if there is a significant difference between BTW and VMC red stone constructs. I am looking forward to RTH and really dont want to see it delayed any longer than needed. Ultimately I believe you do know whats best in the long term for the mod. I dont believe the new red stone features will have enough of a positive impact on BTW to warrant implementing the new features.

[DaveYanakov]

I'm not seeing a reason to put effort into redoing an analog redstone system properly while wrapping up loose ends. Conversely, nothing I've seen really argues that it's worth extra effort to strip out, either. Getting rid of the recipe for 'hoppers' certainly, I'm just not seeing where anything more would be worth your time.

[FlowerChild]

I'm not seeing a reason to put effort into redoing an analog redstone system properly while wrapping up loose ends. Conversely, nothing I've seen really argues that it's worth extra effort to strip out, either. Getting rid of the recipe for 'hoppers' certainly, I'm just not seeing where anything more would be worth your time.

I'm not willing to leave it in unless I fix it in some way. I'm currently trying to "wrap up" BTW by tying up loose ends both in the mod and in vanilla in order for the mod to present a cohesive gameplay experience that I will feel satisfied in calling "complete".

Allowing additional loose ends to slip into the game that detract from the overall quality of the experience and potentially throw existing systems out of balance is thus counter-productive to that goal.

[skrat6009]

I'm not willing to leave it in unless I fix it in some way. I'm currently trying to "wrap up" BTW by tying up loose ends both in the mod and in vanilla in order for the mod to present a cohesive gameplay experience that I will feel satisfied in calling "complete".

Personally, I would like to see it stay in the game, but as a separate new system that would be a sort of upgrade from regular redstone. In essence, you have plain redstone that would behave like normal, but when say something like gold is added to redstone then it gains the ability to have the new functions. I figure if you're going to consider "overhauling" it rather than removing it, perhaps something like this would allow the best of both worlds as it would not break existing builds because plain redstone would be in place, but at the same time you could leave the new features in place for dispensers and the like as long as the signal came from the "upgraded" redstone. Of course, I do also agree that some aspects of it do need to be completely removed.

[Gilberreke]

To me, redstone has always been analogue and I've used signal strength in my designs in the past, before 1.5. Being able to use that signal strength in blocks is a "potential cool idea (TM)". That said, you know that I love the comparator, but I don't think it fits a purpose, since I've seen no cool signal-reliant blocks yet (nor can I think of any, it's just... there).

So, my take on it is: rip it out. Unless you have an epiphany where you could use redstone signal strength as an analogue indicator, it really serves no use in BTW and even severely muddies its principles. I think you shouldn't even consider this, as all analogue features in 1.5 are really detrimental to your mod (especially the analog emitting blocks).

Personally, I would rip out everything except for the comparator and make sure that the repeater and comparator can not emit redstone to a block, only to dust. That would finally give the repeater a place that's better suited and fix the comparator being useful in gates (which I think is a mistake). Problem is: 1) that would break builds. 2) I would do that because I like the comparator. You doing it would be futile, since you don't.

All analogue redstone is futile anyway, since with a maximum signal difference of 15 for redstone dust, the "cable loss" is so great that it doesn't actually work together well with redstone dust, which is just insane. Properly taking care of it would at least require a new kind of dust that can do longer distances.

[BlueRavenGT]

This is a bit of a radical departure for the mod in my mind in that I don't think I've previously ripped out an entire system like this because I didn't like it. I see it as potentially leading to a weird situation with the mod where vanilla redstone and BTW redstone are two very different things and that designs that work in vanilla will no longer work in BTW.

Comparators, hoppers, and droppers have all become components of vanilla redstone. Removing or nerfing either hoppers or comparators would be ripping out pretty much an entire system anyway.

[MoRmEnGiL]

As it is now, the new redstone blocks and mechanics allow for very complicated contraptions, that are very precise in timings. I'm quite fine with that in vanilla, but it doesn't feel like it belongs to btw.

So I agree, it's either the axe or the full rework. So you have to ask yourself, is it worth the effort when it's a brand new system and not settled in yet? It looks like they are still changing and shifting things around, and that sounds like a bad time to embark on the brave task of fixing analogue redstone.

Does it make things fun.. Does it add to the game.. Well if you have your way with it, I'm sure it eventually will, but if you ask me, it ain't worth your time, at least at this point. I'd rather you have your fun with nether quartz, and axe analogue redstone until (if) it convinces you it has a place indeed, instead of having to carve it's place yourself.

TL;DR: Not a big fan of changes to things I'm used to. Additions are fine, but changes.. dunno. Screw analogue redstone, it should be a new system based on nether quartz dust or something.

[mogulus]

it should be a new system based on nether quartz dust or something

that was EXACTLY what I was going to say, at the risk of seeming like a suggestion. The build breaking prospect cancels out any excitement that I can muster for any design that I can think of that would use such a feature.