4.62 Balance Observations & Discussion

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FlowerChild
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Re: 4.62 Balance Observations & Discussion

Post by FlowerChild »

Sarudak wrote:Would the campfire allow you to put the cauldron over it or would it be like the furnace?
The idea would be for it to be a way to get a Cauldron working pre-nether, but it would require constant resource expenditure to keep it going.

In terms of functionality, you could think of it almost as a furnace block that allows a Cauldron to be heated on top of it.

Anyways, I'm not sold on the idea myself, but just mentioned it as an aside, as something I've been considering again.

It would unfortunately be rather game resource intensive as it would require two blockIDs for a very specific and limited use early-game function...unless...

Hmmm...I might be able to combine it with the light block actually....

Will ponder :)
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Simurgh
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Re: 4.62 Balance Observations & Discussion

Post by Simurgh »

Sandrew wrote:You can cook stuff by lighting the block below your cauldron on fire. It burns for long enough to cook a single item at a time. You shouldn't use wood though, it burns up and extinguishes the flame. I doubt it's intended behaviour but the process is bothersome enough that I personally can't consider it an exploit.
I didn't think that was an exploit, I've been using that for a long while lol :)

As a note, boats are now really powerful, maybe too powerful especially early game - yep, I get that they are a low-fuel alternative to swimming, but the hunger bar hardly seems to deplete while using one.
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Sarudak
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Re: 4.62 Balance Observations & Discussion

Post by Sarudak »

Hmmm... Are you sure you want to make the cauldron usable pre-nether? I mean I think it's an interesting choice whether you go for the cauldron first or a village first and making the cauldron available pre-nether seems like it would kinda eliminate that strategic choice...
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FlowerChild
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Re: 4.62 Balance Observations & Discussion

Post by FlowerChild »

Sarudak wrote:Hmmm... Are you sure you want to make the cauldron usable pre-nether? I mean I think it's an interesting choice whether you go for the cauldron first or a village first and making the cauldron available pre-nether seems like it would kinda eliminate that strategic choice...
No, hence why I'm still thinking about it ;)
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Sarudak
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Re: 4.62 Balance Observations & Discussion

Post by Sarudak »

Simurgh wrote: As a note, boats are now really powerful, maybe too powerful especially early game - yep, I get that they are a low-fuel alternative to swimming, but the hunger bar hardly seems to deplete while using one.
Do boats use any hunger at all or is it the same as walking? I have noticed they are exceptionally good for travelling. OP perhaps...
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FlowerChild
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Re: 4.62 Balance Observations & Discussion

Post by FlowerChild »

Sarudak wrote: Do boats use any hunger at all or is it the same as walking? I have noticed they are exceptionally good for travelling. OP perhaps...
Yeah, I'll take a look at them. I haven't touched their exhaustion values at all, so I'm not even aware of what they are at present.

I'd like them to offer some small advantages over land travel, but I also don't want them to dominate entirely.
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DaveYanakov
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Re: 4.62 Balance Observations & Discussion

Post by DaveYanakov »

Rail values seem to be a bit off. On the one hand, you get easy transport with no hunger penalty. On the other hand, it now costs nearly 3.5 iron ore per meter of travel. I haven't laid a single new track yet and hadn't really considered why until just now.
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Solymr
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Re: 4.62 Balance Observations & Discussion

Post by Solymr »

DaveYanakov wrote:Rail values seem to be a bit off. On the one hand, you get easy transport with no hunger penalty. On the other hand, it now costs nearly 3.5 iron ore per meter of travel. I haven't laid a single new track yet and hadn't really considered why until just now.
I just take most of them from abandoned mineshafts. Really good iron profit from them.
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Sarudak
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Re: 4.62 Balance Observations & Discussion

Post by Sarudak »

I'm assuming rails are meant to be used only after you have a mob trap providing you with significant iron income just like screw pumps.
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FlowerChild
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Re: 4.62 Balance Observations & Discussion

Post by FlowerChild »

Sarudak wrote:I'm assuming rails are meant to be used only after you have a mob trap providing you with significant iron income just like screw pumps.
Yup, exactly. Making mob traps *the* way to accumulate iron was one of the motivations in my changes to iron mining.

It basically integrates mob traps into the tech tree at the point at which iron mining generally lost relevance anyways and you'd just wind up ignoring iron deposits.

The important part is that at some point, the player will feel the pressure to build their first mob-trap, and hopefully that will motivate them towards building more specialized ones down the road once their cherry has been busted and they realize how much fun it is. The number of people on the BTW MCF thread that post indicating they have never even built a mob trap, or that focus on spawner based ones (I'll be making additional changes to discourage that aspect), is still rather alarming.

This is also why I didn't want to do it for gold as someone pointed out earlier. I feel nether traps are already sufficiently integrated into the late tech tree due to the whole beacon thing, and gold mining is still a valuable way to accumulate it throughout the game. I didn't want to break something there that was already working well, as I generally find mining to be an undervalued activity rather than an overvalued one.

From an in-game perspective, I think it reasonable to assume that gold ore simply contains a higher concentration of the metal than iron ore does. It could potentially use a texture change to either iron or gold ore to communicate that a bit better to the player, but that's about it.
Gabecraft1234
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Re: 4.62 Balance Observations & Discussion

Post by Gabecraft1234 »

I think that the fact that most locations are not accessable via water ways ballences the reduced hunger drain of boats.
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JakeZKAM
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Re: 4.62 Balance Observations & Discussion

Post by JakeZKAM »

It does make oceans more of a nuisance rather than a very large barrier/obstacle. I've managed to cross a large biomes ocean on 5 pieces of meat and although it takes a ton of time, it's about as much fun as afking. Without requiring a large amount of preparations or at least island hopping, it keeps oceans very boring.
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FlowerChild
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Re: 4.62 Balance Observations & Discussion

Post by FlowerChild »

Gabecraft1234 wrote:I think that the fact that most locations are not accessable via water ways ballences the reduced hunger drain of boats.
I agree, but I don't feel it's fully balanced.

Balance isn't really a yes/no kinda thing ;)

What you mention is a factor in finding its balance, but it doesn't take it all the way.
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Sarudak
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Re: 4.62 Balance Observations & Discussion

Post by Sarudak »

FlowerChild wrote: I generally find mining to be an undervalued activity rather than an overvalued one.
This is actually the reason that I was concerned on hearing the iron change. I knew iron prices could be adjusted to match the new rarity. My problem was that because of the ease of attaining iron from zombies I felt like it would devalue mining for it. Then again I suppose it was devalued the moment you could get it from mob traps so that particular bit of damage had already been done. I look forward to what you end up doing in RTH to make mining both a valued activity and hopefully an interesting one (ie more interesting than dig down to level 12 anywhere on the map then dig in a grid until you luck out). :)
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MrPlatypus
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Re: 4.62 Balance Observations & Discussion

Post by MrPlatypus »

Sarudak wrote:I look forward to what you end up doing in RTH to make mining both a valued activity and hopefully an interesting one.
I think this was done very well in Terraria through the amount of things that can be found while mining. In Minecraft, there are abandoned mine shafts, dungeons, and mob spawners, but I still think that the depths of the world could offer a little more.
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FlowerChild
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Re: 4.62 Balance Observations & Discussion

Post by FlowerChild »

Sarudak wrote:Then again I suppose it was devalued the moment you could get it from mob traps so that particular bit of damage had already been done.
Yup, that's exactly right. What I can do however is accept that, then make lemons into lemonade and turn that into an aspect of the tech tree rather than just a side-effect.

Before, iron was universally overabundant. Now it's rare enough in the early game to make it valuable to mine, and serves to promote mob-trap construction in the late. Win/win.
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Sarudak
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Re: 4.62 Balance Observations & Discussion

Post by Sarudak »

It still makes me sad........
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FlowerChild
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Re: 4.62 Balance Observations & Discussion

Post by FlowerChild »

Sarudak wrote:It still makes me sad........
Don't drag me down with your negative Nelly man :)

Triage is a valuable skill in game design. At a certain point, you have to cut your losses and move on in order to move forward, and nothing will screw you over faster than only accepting theoretically ideal solutions to a problem.

In this case by accepting iron as a valuable part of late game mining as fatally wounded, I was able to administer a pain-killer to it, prolonging its life in the early to middle game, then I was able to move onto the next patient, and increase the value of mob traps in the late providing them with a very specific use that most players will likely not want to do without, whereas before their iron output was more of a nice little bonus given its general abundance, but was in no way really compelling people to build one as a gameplay necessity.

Is it therefore much better in multiple ways then before? Yes, absolutely.

Be happy :)
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ThePuzzleMasher
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Re: 4.62 Balance Observations & Discussion

Post by ThePuzzleMasher »

Sarudak wrote:It still makes me sad........
I don't think there is a way to farm diamonds without mining so mining still has a use.


also on the topic of hunger draining and boats the minecraft wiki says this...
the player can travel several days by boat and the food bar will not decrease.
...I'm guessing that it counts as standing still which FC added hunger draining for.
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FlowerChild
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Re: 4.62 Balance Observations & Discussion

Post by FlowerChild »

ThePuzzleMasher wrote:I don't think there is a way to farm diamonds without mining so mining still has a use.
And you may have noticed I've been increasing those uses and player dependence on diamonds (and lapis...and gold).

I consider bedrock level mining not to be a lost cause (which again, is why I left gold as is), but to be specific, what I have triaged is surface level mining late game, when coal and iron cease to be meaningful deposits.
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skrat6009
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Re: 4.62 Balance Observations & Discussion

Post by skrat6009 »

FlowerChild wrote:I consider bedrock level mining not to be a lost cause (which again, is why I left gold as is), but to be specific, what I have triaged is surface level mining late game, when coal and iron cease to be meaningful deposits.
Now hang on, I wouldn't say that coal ceases to be meaningful even in late game considering you need a coal dust for every bar of SFS. Considering that there is not a way to automate coal production, unless you count the rare drops of coal from wither skellies, mining coal is still an important part of late game. I would definitely say that iron production from a regular mob trap far outweighs the coal production of a nether mob trap, and since most of my iron goes toward SFS, coal tends to be my main reason for mining unless I need diamonds. I rarely do go after diamonds myself simply because the only instance of needing a lot of diamonds is the fortune pyramid which to me takes too many diamonds to justify the gain. Until the basic enchanting system is removed I will simply be enchanting countless iron picks using the abundance of experience I get from my massive mob trap.
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Re: 4.62 Balance Observations & Discussion

Post by tom_savage »

skrat6009 wrote:
FlowerChild wrote:I consider bedrock level mining not to be a lost cause (which again, is why I left gold as is), but to be specific, what I have triaged is surface level mining late game, when coal and iron cease to be meaningful deposits.
Now hang on, I wouldn't say that coal ceases to be meaningful even in late game considering you need a coal dust for every bar of SFS. Considering that there is not a way to automate coal production, unless you count the rare drops of coal from wither skellies, mining coal is still an important part of late game. I would definitely say that iron production from a regular mob trap far outweighs the coal production of a nether mob trap, and since most of my iron goes toward SFS, coal tends to be my main reason for mining unless I need diamonds. I rarely do go after diamonds myself simply because the only instance of needing a lot of diamonds is the fortune pyramid which to me takes too many diamonds to justify the gain. Until the basic enchanting system is removed I will simply be enchanting countless iron picks using the abundance of experience I get from my massive mob trap.
Meh, I seem to passively gain so much coal that I stop mining it eventually. And when I do, I mine it with a silk touch pickaxe to save for later fortune pickaxe mining as needed. The abundance of it and the size of the veins are ridiculous when used alongside any amount of Fortune enchantment. Beacons really are the main reason I do bedrock mining, except for gold which does a good job of being rare enough that when doing big projects with anytype of minecart becomes necessary to mine for again. Emeralds gained usefulness with villagers supplying arcane scrolls, although their overall value is still very sparatic. Diamonds also gained usefulness with villagers but tapers off when you've gained the right kind of villagers with decent prices. Overall, there are plenty of places to spend most of the surplus's people create, it's just a matter of using them. Wouldn't coal be of even lesser value now that people have to mine 9x the iron to do the same thing? Even when smelting SFS, to gain the iron needed to produce it, there is now a greater chance you'll have 9x the coal that you normally would have by the time you get the iron amount you need (assuming their rarity is roughly the same).
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ehsanmp
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Re: 4.62 Balance Observations & Discussion

Post by ehsanmp »

FlowerChild wrote: Hmmm...I might be able to combine it with the light block actually....
I eagerly await the arrival of the BTW Halogen Oven!
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skrat6009
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Re: 4.62 Balance Observations & Discussion

Post by skrat6009 »

tom_savage wrote:Wouldn't coal be of even lesser value now that people have to mine 9x the iron to do the same thing? Even when smelting SFS, to gain the iron needed to produce it, there is now a greater chance you'll have 9x the coal that you normally would have by the time you get the iron amount you need (assuming their rarity is roughly the same).
By the time you are making SFS on a large scale, mining iron should be obsolete because it was FC's goal to basically integrate a mob grinder into the tech tree to meet your iron needs. If you aren't mining iron anymore, my point is that you still have to mine coal at some point in order meet the requirements for creating the VAST amounts of SFS to make a SFS beacon. Yes it would take 9x the amount of iron ORE to do anything, but if you aren't mining iron because you are using a mob grinder (which you should be by that point) then the amount of iron required for anything hasn't changed at all because the change from ingots to nuggets doesn't affect grinders' outputs at all.
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DaveYanakov
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Re: 4.62 Balance Observations & Discussion

Post by DaveYanakov »

The other thing I forgot to mention yesterday when i spoke of rails was minecart chests. I've always found them to be extremely useful for bulk storage but even with mob trap outputs, 5 iron for a chest is going to be a very steep price to pay for cobble storage now that incidental iron found while branch mining has been devalued. It has long been a habit to make one of them with every other iron vein in order to dump dross while caving or branching.
skrat6009 wrote:Now hang on, I wouldn't say that coal ceases to be meaningful even in late game considering you need a coal dust for every bar of SFS. Considering that there is not a way to automate coal production, unless you count the rare drops of coal from wither skellies, mining coal is still an important part of late game. I would definitely say that iron production from a regular mob trap far outweighs the coal production of a nether mob trap, and since most of my iron goes toward SFS, coal tends to be my main reason for mining unless I need diamonds. I rarely do go after diamonds myself simply because the only instance of needing a lot of diamonds is the fortune pyramid which to me takes too many diamonds to justify the gain. Until the basic enchanting system is removed I will simply be enchanting countless iron picks using the abundance of experience I get from my massive mob trap.
You can't grind charcoal into dust anymore?
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