Vanilla Minecraft News Discussion

[Talrea]

can i point out something people i don't think have considered (or at least not mentioned) about mobs being scared of tracks..

mob spawner with minetracks across the spawnable area... the mobs will move off the tracks fast and ... well fall into whatever monster killy thing has been set up.

unless the mob ai has taken their own safety into acount with regard to moving (eg they refuse to move from tracks into shallow water etc) hes just massively increased the speed of mobtraps.


*sigh*

[kjbrona]

It would make a lot more sense if animals were scared of [moving] minecarts.

Arrgh!!! big noisy thing coming at me! I'm outta here!

Even that is easy to "game" with powered rails. Just have like 2 carts constantly circling your base.

This item is definitely Mojang's least thought out change so far.

[mazer246]

Anyway, trying to find reason in what Mojang does is like trying to find ores in The End.

Probably won't be long till we will start finding those, the ores I mean...

[Benanov]

I think with this one we see an example of what I've said in the past about the danger of supporting too many optional modes of play and why I try to stay away from it. We're seeing functionality creep into the game that's intended for one mode, and just doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense in another (the primary mode no less).

I was thinking earlier that MC is really a "master's class" of game design. To give you an extreme example, a rail-shooter is very easy to design as the player's choices within that environment are exceedingly limited. As a result, it's very hard to put in a feature that wrecks the game entirely, or which throws other features completely out of whack.

As more player choice is introduced into a design, it introduces more variables into the equation. What level is the player? What kind of equipment does he have? etc. Now, you're looking at situations where someone may have picked something up 2 hours ago in the game which completely invalidates the experience they have now. An example of this would be how smithing and enchanting your own equipment in Skyrim can result in any combat the player engages in becoming entirely trivial and dull.

Now, why I consider MC to be a "master's class" is that I can't think of another game in the history of video games that provides so much player freedom. As a result, the number of variables you have to deal with in designing for it are through the roof, and the smallest change or addition can have the hugest of consequences. This is probably one of the big reasons why I enjoy designing for this kind of game so much, as it really puts my skills to the test, and constantly gives me extremely complex problems to mull over and keep me stimulated.

Obviously, this presents a problem when you have someone with no design experience putting new features into the game, as its probably one of the worst places to begin working as a designer as you're being thrown straight into the deep end, but the point I was trying to get at here is that it also means that introducing *additional* variables into the process, such as optional modes like creative or adventure, is even more dangerous than it would be in a more traditional game.

Basically, you've already got more than enough to worry about without throwing the additional complexity into the mix where you don't even know what game the player is actually playing.

Three thoughts.

You seem to have this strategy of "let the add-on authors handle the weird cases" - and I personally like that. Warr, Dave and I assumed that if you said you were not going to support skyblock, superflat, etc., you meant it: we've held back on asking for any changes to BTW standard (save the HC spawn thing, as that was a simple non-intrusive fix) and we're going to hold the line and not turn it into a slippery slope.

The second thought is that people are always going to do stuff people didn't intend with any sort of software program; no one can design for all the possibilities (although the nethack team really tries). Some of it is benign; other stuff is cheating, metagaming, bending or breaking the design; and other stuff is so far out of the realm of what was considered possibility that it's boggling to the mind...but it happens. MC is very hard due to that sort of "infinite flexibility" that it provides.

The third...a lot of MMO-type games don't plan for expansion or growth really well. EverQuest was like this - everything balanced to 50, etc...and then oh look, new expansion, we want people to buy it, so we'll bump the level cap and make powerful items there, etc... and suddenly a couple expansions later and a very well-geared monk can solo a dragon...oh crap, that wasn't intended...now we have to put in weird crap like "you must be under level 52 to fight this encounter" to keep it at some sort of basic challenge level...and now it's hack on top of band-aid on top of work around and suddenly, that expansion "everyone had to have" 2 years ago sits empty on every server, because there's no reason to go there except for a few die-hards, as the rewards kept getting sweeter and sweeter every expansion so that people would visit.

A lot of these new blocks and AI concepts are solutions looking for problems, or poorly thought out solutions to a solitary problem.

Mobs shouldn't be afraid of minecart tracks - they should, perhaps, just endeavor to spend as little time on them as possible. You can still railroad them (hee) but now you'll have to work for it.

[grimper12341]

http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/166 ... ry20529051

OK just want to clear something up. mobs are not AFRAID to step on them. They now regard rails almost like ledges. Hesitant to cross, but will if scared / attacking. So no, they aren't force fields, and zombies will cross them, just sheep and stuff wont wander on the tracks anymore.

^ if that post is accurate then abandoned mineshafts shouldn't get too screwed up. However rails above ground will still suffer from the problem as I've outlined in that thread (and had to reiterate several times because people can't read)

[Grass_Block]

Hey , i have a idea for a EPIC fortress in vMC!
You need dirt (that's when the hardcore stuff begins) , netherrack , rails (if you can't get them open your world to LAN and hack them) a bed , and maybe some obsidian.

Surround your super-building with rails , encase yourself in the dirt and put some obsidian close so creepers can't do anything. Then start a fire on the netherrack. Put the bed near you and sleep on it so you don't have to worry about hunger.

ULTIMATE defensive struture!

[JakeZKAM]

It might be interesting if they did the opposite and made hostile mobs attracted to the sound of mine carts, thus requiring better defenses for any mine cart tracks you set up for transportation, either so they can't get at it or can't hear it. Now I'm having visions of creepers blowing up all my carefully built rails, letting forth the horde into the base and destroying all my precious resources :-)

[Locke]

I like that idea, requiring forethought and the resources necessary to build a rail 2 blocks off the ground...

Really, if your biggest problem with rails is that then you need to completely rethink your rails system.

[EtherealWrath]

Thinking about it- surely a large chunk of iron would splat/crunch mobs above a certain speed- or at least shunt them out of the way...

[JakeZKAM]

I like that idea, requiring forethought and the resources necessary to build a rail 2 blocks off the ground...

Really, if your biggest problem with rails is that then you need to completely rethink your rails system.

Because once you're two blocks off the ground skeletons can't shoot you? Creepers could drop from the cliffs nearby if you don't place it right, zombies might bust through your puny wooden doors and chase you all the way down the track, and heaven forbid you build in the nether, the ghasts will just love using you for target practice. I'm not saying it's a game changing feature, more that creatures out for your blood would head towards a loud noise signifying your presence like mine carts rather than running away. My point is if they're going to make a change in mob behavior towards rails, I'd rather it be something like this rather than a magic anti mob fence.

[Kain Magin]

wow, im all late for the fun... mobs are afraid if minecart tracks????? oh dear god..... yup, my minecraft is not getting an update untill BTW fixes that... screw that stupidity... Cmon Notch... Jeb and Dinnerbone are ruining Minecraft... boot them out a window for gods sake.... effin retards... The dispencer for armor/bonemeal is a dumb... update... dont like it, dont use it... I wont be. They just keep hitting us with more and more stupid additions that just make no sence.

[userzero]

Every-time I read the notes for the upcoming updates I say a silent prayer to (insert dark deity of your choosing) asking that Minecraft freeze development and/or approve forking of old versions. With the redstone update potentially breaking so many builds, I really wish they would just abandon it and start work on Minecraft2 "revenge of the forge" or "every watered down mod we can bastardize and throw together into an incoherent sludge". I simply do not understand the reasoning behind making so many changes to the fundamentals that have made the game so successful in the first place.

[Shengji]

Every-time I read the notes for the upcoming updates I say a silent prayer to (insert dark deity of your choosing) asking that Minecraft freeze development

Me too! I don't understand why such drastic development continues on the game after its release. It's almost as if Notch is paying an in house modding team, surely current sales cannot pay their wages? He must be allowing them to gain experience before reassigning them to a new project.

[FlowerChild]

Me too! I don't understand why such drastic development continues on the game after its release. It's almost as if Notch is paying an in house modding team, surely current sales cannot pay their wages?

Sure they can man. MC is still selling a million units every few months. You can see it just sold another million in the news items on MCF. What is that, 25 million dollars gross?

It probably doesn't cost more than a couple of hundred thousand a year to keep MC development going the way it is now.

I certainly don't approve of the current direction in which MC is going, and I'd personally be in heaven if they just stopped developing it entirely, but at the same time, I sincerely doubt it's not cost effective for them to keep going the way they are.

[Shengji]

I did not know that (MCF's are poison for my eyes) - fair enough then, I guess continued development is helping to sustain those sales.

[FlowerChild]

I did not know that (MCF's are poison for my eyes) - fair enough then, I guess continued development is helping to sustain those sales.

Yeah...MC's sales are fairly insane man. I think it's one of the things that makes trying to argue with them against their current direction fairly futile, as they're still bringing in money hand over first.

Even when it starts to slack, I doubt they'll realize they did anything wrong there, since all games have a finite lifespan and they'll probably just think it expired.

To them, it will just be the difference between the oodles and theoretical bajillions of dollars they could have made. Either way, they've made a mint, so the difference is unlikely to be apparent.

[DaveYanakov]

That is one benefit of subscription based games. Mojang already has our money so their goal is to keep lowering the bar to draw in more people who will pay a fee up front. Pay to play or freemium games need to avoid alienating the player base that is keeping the overhead paid down while they seek new subscribers.

[FlowerChild]

That is one benefit of subscription based games. Mojang already has our money so their goal is to keep lowering the bar to draw in more people who will pay a fee up front. Pay to play or freemium games need to avoid alienating the player base that is keeping the overhead paid down while they seek new subscribers.

Yeah, but I don't think that's part of any kind of grand strategy or anything man. Again, I just think it's an issue with not actually having a designer on the project.

[Xaedblade]

I did not know that (MCF's are poison for my eyes) - fair enough then, I guess continued development is helping to sustain those sales.

Yeah...MC's sales are fairly insane man. I think it's one of the things that makes trying to argue with them against their current direction fairly futile, as they're still bringing in money hand over first.

Even when it starts to slack, I doubt they'll realize they did anything wrong there, since all games have a finite lifespan and they'll probably just think it expired.

To them, it will just be the difference between the oodles and theoretical bajillions of dollars they could have made. Either way, they've made a mint, so the difference is unlikely to be apparent.

Well when it finally "expires" that means that they will leave it alone and can't mess it up any more! lol

[FlowerChild]

Well when it finally "expires" that means that they will leave it alone and can't mess it up any more! lol

I don't suspect there will be many of us still willing to play it at that point.

Everything from the poor quality of recent features to how the design of the mod API seems to be actively discouraging modding are going to eventually add up.

[DaveYanakov]

I highly doubt that it is planned but if they see a jump in sales every time they release fluff or make the game easier, economic pressure will make it happen naturally.

[FlowerChild]

I highly doubt that it is planned but if they see a jump in sales every time they release fluff or make the game easier, economic pressure will make it happen naturally.

I doubt that would happen though man. The game has enough momentum and word of mouth out there that I think it would be more of a slow decline rather than noticeable jumps.

When you're dealing with a user base of millions, you're dealing with a system so huge that it doesn't fluctuate noticeably without an absolutely massive push.

Plus, this is stuff that most people don't even notice because they're too busy celebrating getting more power as a player. It's the long-term gradual impact of all of it on their play experience that makes the difference.

[Shengji]

I don't suspect there will be many of us still willing to play it at that point.

How many people here are actually willing to play vanilla now? If it wasn't for BTW, I would have stopped playing a long long time ago!

[dawnraider]

I don't suspect there will be many of us still willing to play it at that point.

How many people here are actually willing to play vanilla now? If it wasn't for BTW, I would have stopped playing a long long time ago!

Entirely. I would've left after 1.0 came out, as while it did introduce cool things like breeding and enchanting, like all things in vanilla, it has its appeal for a bit, then gets boring, and now none of the new stuff I even want to try out as all as it is all such f***ing s**t that is just making the quality of the game decline swiftly. Again, I would have left and never looked back if BTW wasn't so amazing. So thank you, FC, for making the game fun once again, and keeping me on board.

[Xaedblade]

Well when it finally "expires" that means that they will leave it alone and can't mess it up any more! lol

I don't suspect there will be many of us still willing to play it at that point.

Everything from the poor quality of recent features to how the design of the mod API seems to be actively discouraging modding are going to eventually add up.

Well that means that rth will be the next great thing ;)