Vanilla Minecraft News Discussion

[FlowerChild]

Man, I can not emphasize the lols this change is giving me enough. Here I've been for months considering how to make fortifications a more interesting part of the game, playing around with subtle and cool concepts like how spiders require lips on walls to prevent them getting over, and Mojang seemingly oblivious to the impact manages to effectively wipe out fortifications as any kind of serious in game consideration in one fell swoop. They've effectively provided the swiss-army knife of base defense in a non-sensical and lame looking manner.

I really got to hand it to them man. This one is fucking epic and I'm sure the MC community at large will be praising its virtues while a whole aspect of gameplay slowly fades off into the mist without them being even vaguely aware of it.

Seriously...

<clap> <clap> <clap>

EDIT: Oh...and just imagine what it'll do to mob behavior in abandoned mineshafts...lol!

[warmist]

I'm so sad. Not because it messes up the BTW (i trust FC will either remove changes like a tumour or move on to the better place...) but because i like other mods that use vanilla minecraft and they get worse with each vanilla minecraft version. It's just sad....

[Shengji]

EDIT: Oh...and just imagine what it'll do to mob behavior in abandoned mineshafts...lol!

Which will no doubt inspire a whole rewrite of the AI system after the yoghurtcasters pretend they are dwarfs and upload videos of themselves mocking creepers unable to get to them in mines.

Breaking Vanilla.

Again.

[warmist]

EDIT: Oh...and just imagine what it'll do to mob behavior in abandoned mineshafts...lol!

Which will no doubt inspire a whole rewrite of the AI system after the yoghurtcasters pretend they are dwarfs and upload videos of themselves mocking creepers unable to get to them in mines.

Breaking Vanilla.

Again.

I hope that they break it so much that they understand what they have done (and thus rollback the changes. although if they don't PLAY (as in really play) the game they will never notice this)

Edit: also commandblocks is scripting implemented wrongly (very wrongly...)

[Sarudak]

I didn't even think about abandoned mineshafts! That'll be hilarious. :P

[FlowerChild]

Well, I have to at least thank Mojang from providing me with one of the best laughs I've had in a long time :)

Seriously, I keep breaking out into bursts of laughter randomly here. I'm having problems not blowing coffee out of my nose.

It's like the "what are the implications of this?" part of someone's mind is entirely lacking here. Someone created a "the devil is in the details" thread over in off-topic recently, and this is a prime example of how that relates to game design. You can't just willy-nilly make changes to address an immediate problem without considering the ramifications of that on other aspects of a game, especially not a game with as much player-freedom and interdependent parts as MC.

Again...this is something Notch seemed to implicitly "get", and it can be seen it subtle things like the spider behavior I mentioned above. Yes, he made mistakes like beds and such in the process on his way out the door from MC (heck, I'll admit to making the occasional one as well as all the ramifications of a change are not always immediately obvious), but in general, I always got the impression he was aware of the long-term impact of his decisions on gameplay.

Now though? Not the least bit. MC "design" has become the proverbial bull in a china shop.

Fuck man, the number of design holes, and fairly known ones, in this relatively minor update are staggering. Like, I'm sure I'm not the only one that noticed that their new bonemeal dispenser behavior just made those ridiculous looking machine-gun tree-farms from other tech mods a part of vanilla, and that was something that was discussed to death in this mod's development close to two years ago.

Anyways, yeah, I think we've been aware here for quite awhile now of the downhill slide in vanilla's design, and I guess for me I've accepted it enough now where it's become comical to me rather than a source of constant angst like it used to be while I sweated over how I could possibly change the mod to accommodate. Now, I just have a good laugh, shake my head, rip that shit out, and move on.

[Sarudak]

I think it's only comical for you now that RTH has a firm place on the horizon. :)

[FlowerChild]

I thought you guys might find this amusing:

For the first time ever, I just added a "shit I need to rip out of 1.5" page to my mod-related notes.

Previously, the changes I needed to address were never significant enough for me to worry that I couldn't just keep mental track of them. Now though, they're stacking up to a degree that I don't want to forget any of the bunch when it comes time to update the mod.

So, more lols there :)

Also, I suspect I'm going to rename BTW to be a Total Conversion when 1.5 rolls around. This doesn't represent a shift in my design paradigm, just the realization that the differences from vanilla are becoming so extensive that I think it warrants the label. Actually, I'm also realizing it's going to be a severe pain in the ass to list all those changes when it comes time to update the MCF OP.

[nmarshall23]

Here is one thing from this update that I like.

Comparators can now be used with jukeboxes. Output signal strength relates to disk number.

It is an rather odd way of implementing a selector switch. I'm not sure that I would have given this functionality to the Comparator. Why Mojang has chosen to overload the Comparator with functionality I don't get.. It's not like they have to worry about running out of block ids..

Regardless, this does give me a reason to farm disks.

[FlowerChild]

It is an rather odd way of implementing a selector switch. I'm not sure that I would have given this functionality to the Comparator. Why Mojang has chosen to overload the Comparator with functionality I don't get.. It's not like they have to worry about running out of block ids..

Regardless, this does give me a reason to farm disks.

Yeah, don't get too excited, as the comparator being used to detect inventory contents is already on my list due to it having no in-game justification, and that will likely include the jukebox functionality as well.

At least though, it's already a redstone device, and the jukebox is relatively useless anyways, so I may leave that one alone, but if I'm going entirely consistent or if it would result in a lot of exception cases rather than just a clean cut, it may go too.

[nmarshall23]

Yeah, don't get too excited, as the comparator being used to detect inventory contents is already on my list due to it having no in-game justification, and that will likely include the jukebox functionality as well.

And I'd agree with you. That functionality belongs on another block. I'm going to chew on the idea, of a block that can detect internal state. And how that should work, and not be so over powered, I may implement something myself. Ideally I'd want something like Sensors from Sargunster BTW Addon. Something that makes sense and has limitations, and doesn't feel tacked on.

Searing back on topic, have you guys noticed how many idea's are given to Mojang?
People on Reddit have been the source for most of the well thought out additions. The Redstone block was suggested to them there.

[finite8]

I dub this the "Sethbling Update"

[FlowerChild]

And I'd agree with you. That functionality belongs on another block. I'm going to chew on the idea, of a block that can detect internal state. And how that should work, and not be so over powered, I may implement something myself. Ideally I'd want something like Sensors from Sargunster BTW Addon. Something that makes sense and has limitations, and doesn't feel tacked on.

Honestly, I think a single block universal solution to this is the wrong approach as well. It's certainly better than what Mojang is doing with the comparator, but it also cuts down on the potential interesting interactions between blocks significantly.

Personally, I'm probably going to go with the idea someone else mentioned earlier in this thread for "weighted chests". Basically, a chest with a pressure plate built into it to produce a signal, similar to what the Hopper does now. I'll also likely be adapting the Hopper to produce a variable strength signal based on contents, since it already works on a similar principle.

One thing I always try to keep in mind in trying to correct vanilla mistakes is not to jump on the first solution that sounds better, but to really look at the overall problem and how I would attempt to address it if I were doing so from scratch. Beacons are a good example, in that I could have limited my involvement with them to say extending the range and basing the power on material type, but instead, I really tried to look at what they did and what was potentially cool about them, and rework them from the ground up so that they feel like an actual aspect of the mod rather than me just putting a band aid on top of what vanilla screwed up.

Bonemeal is another great example. Mojang is going the band-aid route with increasing the amount required to "balance" it (which I think is going to change very little in practice), whereas I went for the full overhaul. I find myself actually having fun fertilizing my crops in the early game now as a result, whereas in the past I avoided bonemeal almost entirely as it always felt like cheating.

[SterlingRed]

Bonemeal is another great example. Mojang is going the band-aid route with increasing the amount required to "balance" it (which I think is going to change very little in practice), whereas I went for the full overhaul. I find myself actually having fun fertilizing my crops in the early game now as a result, whereas in the past I avoided bonemeal almost entirely as it always felt like cheating.

Except when it comes to trees, Mojang didn't increase the amount. They actually significantly reduced the amount. Previously using bonemeal on trees gave a random chance of success. Now its guaranteed growth every 2 bonemeal. I don't know exactly what the avg bonemeal/tree worked out to previously, but from my days of pre-btw, I recall it being much greater than 2. Dear Mojang, I think you may want to look up the definition of "Nerf."

[FlowerChild]

Except when it comes to trees, Mojang didn't increase the amount. They actually significantly reduced the amount. Previously using bonemeal on trees gave a random chance of success. Now its guaranteed growth every 2 bonemeal. I don't know exactly what the avg bonemeal/tree worked out to previously, but from my days of pre-btw, I recall it being much greater than 2. Dear Mojang, I think you may want to look up the definition of "Nerf."

Hey, true that. I hadn't even considered that aspect of how trees work in vanilla.

Not only did they implement the machine-gun tree farms, they just upped their rate of fire :)

[EtherealWrath]

Here is one thing from this update that I like.
Comparators can now be used with jukeboxes. Output signal strength relates to disk number.

As far as survival gameplay and general logic goes- this feature makes little sense.

However, it's a very useful tool for map builders. Anyone remember that Herobrine's mansion map, and all the bosses dropped a record disk. Loading the records would trigger a BUD-switch (now broke in 1.5) and open the next part of the map.

Too be honest, some of the new features would work a lot better as an 'admin' item- only available in creative or via /give.

I'm just waiting on the MCF title 'Better than Wolves - now incompatible with vanilla'


//Edit//

Except when it comes to trees, Mojang didn't increase the amount. They actually significantly reduced the amount. Previously using bonemeal on trees gave a random chance of success. Now its guaranteed growth every 2 bonemeal. I don't know exactly what the avg bonemeal/tree worked out to previously, but from my days of pre-btw, I recall it being much greater than 2. Dear Mojang, I think you may want to look up the definition of "Nerf."

In creative, its always 1 unless theres something restricting space. Survival it takes 1 bonemeal about 70-80% of the time.
I'm not sure when it became this easy, but it broke the trick of getting tall trees by placing blocks 3 up and one across.

[FlowerChild]

You've seen the TF2 map? Dispensers equipping armor automatically seems nearly perfect for that sort of setup, where respawning uses a series of command blocks to give each player a class- and team-based loadout. Other arena and minigame maps would also benefit from the change. In survival worlds, it doesn't make as much sense though. (Unless someone built an arena within a survival world.)

My fits of laughter have receded enough to start looking at some of the other points:

I think with this one we see an example of what I've said in the past about the danger of supporting too many optional modes of play and why I try to stay away from it. We're seeing functionality creep into the game that's intended for one mode, and just doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense in another (the primary mode no less).

I was thinking earlier that MC is really a "master's class" of game design. To give you an extreme example, a rail-shooter is very easy to design as the player's choices within that environment are exceedingly limited. As a result, it's very hard to put in a feature that wrecks the game entirely, or which throws other features completely out of whack.

As more player choice is introduced into a design, it introduces more variables into the equation. What level is the player? What kind of equipment does he have? etc. Now, you're looking at situations where someone may have picked something up 2 hours ago in the game which completely invalidates the experience they have now. An example of this would be how smithing and enchanting your own equipment in Skyrim can result in any combat the player engages in becoming entirely trivial and dull.

Now, why I consider MC to be a "master's class" is that I can't think of another game in the history of video games that provides so much player freedom. As a result, the number of variables you have to deal with in designing for it are through the roof, and the smallest change or addition can have the hugest of consequences. This is probably one of the big reasons why I enjoy designing for this kind of game so much, as it really puts my skills to the test, and constantly gives me extremely complex problems to mull over and keep me stimulated.

Obviously, this presents a problem when you have someone with no design experience putting new features into the game, as its probably one of the worst places to begin working as a designer as you're being thrown straight into the deep end, but the point I was trying to get at here is that it also means that introducing *additional* variables into the process, such as optional modes like creative or adventure, is even more dangerous than it would be in a more traditional game.

Basically, you've already got more than enough to worry about without throwing the additional complexity into the mix where you don't even know what game the player is actually playing.

[Sarudak]

Except when it comes to trees, Mojang didn't increase the amount. They actually significantly reduced the amount. Previously using bonemeal on trees gave a random chance of success. Now its guaranteed growth every 2 bonemeal.

Excuse me but since when has this happened? Back in my bonemeal using days I never had bonemeal fail on a tree. The only time I ever heard of this occuring is if you surrounded the tree in blocks such that it would only grow if the correct tree type were selected.

[FlowerChild]

Excuse me but since when has this happened? Back in my bonemeal using days I never had bonemeal fail on a tree. The only time I ever heard of this occuring is if you surrounded the tree in blocks such that it would only grow if the correct tree type were selected.

Gah. I think you're right too. Man...it's been such a long time since I messed with vanilla bonemeal :)

[gftweek]

Except when it comes to trees, Mojang didn't increase the amount. They actually significantly reduced the amount. Previously using bonemeal on trees gave a random chance of success. Now its guaranteed growth every 2 bonemeal.

Excuse me but since when has this happened? Back in my bonemeal using days I never had bonemeal fail on a tree. The only time I ever heard of this occuring is if you surrounded the tree in blocks such that it would only grow if the correct tree type were selected.

I lot of tree farm designs pre-bonemeal packed in as many oak trees as possible, so there were often blocks nearby to limit the type of trees that could grow. One youtuber I know of always completely surrounded his trees in blocks to prevent all leaves from growing. In these cases bonemeal would often fail.

If a tree is by itself one bonemeal used to always work, and if you were always using bonemeal for wood, then you only ever needed a single tree anyway.

[SterlingRed]

Ah that makes sense. Been a while since I used bone meal like that. Thinking back, most places i tried to use it were usually underground and i likely had some of the possible spawn options rather limited. Sorry for the mis info.

[johnt]

I don't think 'adventure mode' is a valid excuse for most of these changes, as there is already a magic block for adventure mode they can use to do most of this stuff.

[devak]

What i don't understand is...

what makes mobs scared of tracks? what outlandish thing would've caused each and every mob ever to be afraid of it? it makes no sense. cats i get. A creeper is afraid of fluffyness. but a 2D combo of wood and iron? they'd have to be afraid of every goddamn tree and piece of iron in the world.


It won't be long before we see the first "safe points" in the form of a rail square and a bed in the middle.

[chaoticneutral]

What i don't understand is...

what makes mobs scared of tracks? what outlandish thing would've caused each and every mob ever to be afraid of it? it makes no sense. cats i get. A creeper is afraid of fluffyness. but a 2D combo of wood and iron? they'd have to be afraid of every goddamn tree and piece of iron in the world.


It won't be long before we see the first "safe points" in the form of a rail square and a bed in the middle.

If only they did so passives (not all mobs) are afraid of the minecart, it would be easier to explain - animals are afraid of lousy things, period. It would be still inconsistent and a pain in the ass to transport mobs in minecarts, but at least acceptable.

From a gameplay perspective, it would be fine too, since the biggest exploit people would find for it was building expensive "fences" for animals with iron (i.e. defenses are still needed).

Anyway, trying to find reason in what Mojang does is like trying to find ores in The End.

[EtherealWrath]

It would make a lot more sense if animals were scared of [moving] minecarts.

Arrgh!!! big noisy thing coming at me! I'm outta here!


Looking through the change list, I think burning mobs will now set the environment on fire. Though it means a forest fire every morning I kinda like this idea.
You certainly think twice about using fire aspect weapons or building a wooden house.