Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

[Sarudak]

I think Flower is well aware that I'm not at all a 'yes-man'. ;)

I don't generally see people get banned for disagreeing with Flower. I see people getting banned for hassling or disrespecting them. I don't see why he should have to put up with that on forums he runs.

[william711]

Forge is not a movement, but all mods must be compatible!...

that makes me think of star trek's Borg or dr who's cyber men,
all out to assimilate people and make them one with the group.

Im scared now.

[HaloGamefreek]

I tend to think of this community as intelligent, well-informed, accepting (excluding bouts of stupidity), and especially supportive. I don't know about yes-men... but good people for sure.

[Rianaru]

or dr who's cyber men

Or when all else fails...

EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!!!!!!

Sorry, had to :P

But in all seriousness(and back on-topic) I want to jump on the bandwagon and say that you have my support as well, FC, for whatever route you choose. I don't pretend to know the inner workings of your mind, but just know that whatever you do eventually decide, you won't be lacking for supporters :)

[Mr_Hosed]

Notch said it himself. Ideas are cheap. Implementation is the hard part.

Sure that wasn't jeb? Anyone can have 'ideas', but most people have really badly thought out ones.

I'm not saying that implementing things is easy, but ideas are far from 'cheap'.

Just had to respond to this one as it lines up with another post further down that cuts directly to the heart of what's wrong with BWF, the weird focus on compatibility by the players of MC, FC's growing disenchantment with MC as a platform, etc.

Ideas ARE a dime a dozen. Always remember that. Most likely someone has already "thought" of whatever great idea you've had. That doesn't mean it's not an idea worth persuing mind you, just a basic fact of life. Very little is ever original.

What FC achieved with BTW wasn't a set of ideas, but rather a brilliant design to encompass those ideas into a whole experience. MUCH harder to achieve. The hard part isn't the idea, but the details to make it work.

To illustrate the point, I'm actually designing a clutch system at the moment. A derivative product in every way. However, I've still spent 100s of hours designing and redesigning the thing; product criteria like bolt-in install, manufacturing conciderations to meet the desired pricing structure, up-front tooling investment costs, etc. Afterall, the devil is in the details and solving a problem is never as easy as "boom! idea!".

What's moraly reprehensible with BWF isn't that they are inspired by BTW and are designing their own interpretation, but they're whole-sale copying FC's design without even bothering to add their own flare. Copying work is for the weak minded and lazy.

Given all of this, I can fully understand the desire or atleast concideration of abandoning MC as a platform to further the experience FC is trying to create with BTW.

[moonracer]

Those are some tough issues on your plate. Regardless of the drama with other modders (which is no small matter) it is pretty clear that vMC development has been more of a burden than a boon for you for a while. I hope whatever path you take brings less stress and more enjoyment to you.

That said, not only am I supportive, but also a little excited at the idea of you working on your own game without as many design limitations. I've come to really enjoy your design theory and implementation. I would be very interested in seeing where you would go starting from scratch.

[CrafterOfMines57]

Hmm, I just read what I wrote. Does that mean that those whose aims in modding aren't focused on making minecraft more awesome are excluded? And do such people even exist? Even the most outspoken (hi flowerchild!) Seem to be focused on that aim and should be included..

I am honestly confused by cpw right now, I can't tell where he is going with this. It seems very contradictory to the whole "Forge is not a movement" message he seemed so adamant on spreading, yet at the same time, he's trying to project that same message by saying FC is right in lacking compatibility (despite prior tweets claiming compatibility should come first). I believe Orwellian was used to describe his tweets earlier, and I don't think I know of a better way to describe it.

[FlowerChild]

I am honestly confused by cpw right now, I can't tell where he is going with this. It seems very contradictory to the whole "Forge is not a movement" message he seemed so adamant on spreading, yet at the same time, he's trying to project that same message by saying FC is right in lacking compatibility (despite prior tweets claiming compatibility should come first). I believe Orwellian was used to describe his tweets earlier, and I don't think I know of a better way to describe it.

He's just further proving the points upon which I banned him man, and clearly displaying where his intentions and loyalties lay now that I've cut off any possibility of him "negotiating", and now that he can drop any pretense as a result.

In other words, his true colors are showing through. Again, you don't refer to 7 hours of hate filled ranting as "misguided enthusiasm" or whatever his particular words were without it representing a very particular underlying sentiment.

Am I quick to judge based on what many consider to be tenuous information? Very much so.

Am I *usually* right when I do? Absolutely.

I have definitely made mistakes along the way, as I feel the situation I'm in necessitates making quick decisions based on limited information to avoid being overwhelmed in a mound of shit, but they're rather few and far between given the number of such decisions I routinely make.

[Ulfengaard]

I am honestly confused by cpw right now

It's a mystery. Wrapped in an enigma. Fermented in a cow's posterior. And then lit on fire.

There's no understanding some of the things spouting from the entitlement crowd. The misdirection, hypocrisy, and fallacious thinking are thick, man.

[CrafterOfMines57]

The horrible thing about the Two Minutes Hate was not that one was obliged to act a part, but that it was impossible to avoid joining in..

Okay, I admit it, I laughed when I saw this, now he's just screwing with us. I wonder what the people on Twitter that have no idea about this think?

[FlowerChild]

Okay, I admit it, I laughed when I saw this, now he's just screwing with us. I wonder what the people on Twitter that have no idea about this think?

He spoiled it with the random stream of 1984 quotes though, especially considering how many directly apply to his own behavior and that of his comrades in the party.

[Mr_Hosed]

Okay, I admit it, I laughed when I saw this, now he's just screwing with us. I wonder what the people on Twitter that have no idea about this think?

I just wonder why anyone actually uses twitter ;)

[CrafterOfMines57]

He spoiled it with the random stream of 1984 quotes though, especially considering how many directly apply to his own behavior and that of his comrades in the party.

It's okay, he's going to reread the rules now.

Anyway, that was fun. Going to find #2 to read again.

People are probably so confused by that tweet.

[Folrig]

FlowerChild, I'm sorry man. This whole thing is stupid and quite distressing. It's odd that people cannot see the difference between creativity and wholesale copy. I sometimes wonder if they do but choose to close their eyes. Is this a concious descision? Do I do this?

Regardless....Thank you FC. You are a man of extrordinary talent, and you've up and shared it with us for free. Incredible! Thanks.

Whatever path you take I support. Although, a whole new game sounds wildly appealing:)

[Gawonni]

Hello, I've been following these forums and your thread on MCF religiously since around the time of the technic/yogaboo invasion and I can admit that I'm more of a thinker than a speaker. I started playing your mod exclusively after the fall of the Aether, and you've done one hell of a job with this mod. Man what a road it's been, I remember just starting out with pottery and rushing to make my first automated device, an autokiln. What you provide in this mod free of charge gives me and many others, I'm sure, more enjoyment and replayability than the frivolous, commercial games of today (not to point any fingers). Given all this, it's revolting how the MC modding community treats you, and anyone who doesn't assimilate into their Manifest Destiny, but I suppose that's the community Mojang has fostered.

While I'm uncertain of what route's best for you, I do know that whatever you choose to do, the high quality of your work will inevitably draw people in. Personally though, I think starting your own game from ground up might just be the best path. While it may take some time to get it up on its legs, how much time have you already lost due to innumerable setbacks you had no control over? If some people leave due to impatience, that's their loss, you owe it to yourself to do what's best for you.

I have serious respect for you as a modder and a person, and I would hate to see all your plans be for naught.

Hopefully this post is still relevant 5 pages later :P

Lurking Mode: Reactivated

[Gears]

FlowerChild, I'm sorry man. This whole thing is stupid and quite distressing. It's odd that people cannot see the difference between creativity and wholesale copy. I sometimes wonder if they do but choose to close their eyes. Is this a concious descision? Do I do this?

Regardless....Thank you FC. You are a man of extrordinary talent, and you've up and shared it with us for free. Incredible! Thanks.

Whatever path you take I support. Although, a whole new game sounds wildly appealing:)

Considering the direction vMC is heading, I'd welcome it with open arms and lots of placenta.

[ReaperT]

Considering the direction vMC is heading, I'd welcome it with open arms and lots of placenta.

Lots of placenta? Just how many kids have you had?

Anyways, I really wonder what Mojang thinks of what goes on in the modding community (if they even know). I really doubt that they would agree with half of the shit that happens. I also doubt that Notch would have ever wanted a community like it either. A community should be supportive and friendly. It shouldn't be attacking/flaming/trolling anyone who doesn't agree with them.

[Mr_Hosed]

Lots of placenta? Just how many kids have you had?

1000s by now if he's automated his cow farms. ;)

Anyways, I really wonder what Mojang thinks of what goes on in the modding community (if they even know). I really doubt that they would agree with half of the shit that happens. I also doubt that Notch would have ever wanted a community like it either. A community should be supportive and friendly. It shouldn't be attacking/flaming/trolling anyone who doesn't agree with them.

I don't think Notch, Jeb, or Dinnerbone give a damn frankly. If they did there's a whole slew of things they could have done with the design of the game, support of the modding scene, etc, that would have killed this crap off a long time ago. Not least of which would have been to create a true interface layer that included some form of access control so that mods that wanted to be standalone could be and ones that wanted to be combined could be... You get the idea.

[devak]

Anyways, I really wonder what Mojang thinks of what goes on in the modding community (if they even know). I really doubt that they would agree with half of the shit that happens. I also doubt that Notch would have ever wanted a community like it either. A community should be supportive and friendly. It shouldn't be attacking/flaming/trolling anyone who doesn't agree with them.

Well, they wouldn't even need an API on the scale they want now.

They should've added Modloader from the moment it went popular, and they should've added hooks for other popular modded functions. IE, armor. Follow it up with an Ore Dictionary, and with a (relatively) small amount of effort, you now have roughly 60% of all mods compatible through vanilla (all the copper, tin, steel, uranium mods, multitool mods and various other common types of mods make up the majority of mods).

Expand from there, adding more commonly needed hooks untill you have everything in the API.

[OpTicTide97]

would it be possible to make a BTW launcher? that you could lock hide/lock the files?

[Azdoine]

would it be possible to make a BTW launcher? that you could lock hide/lock the files?

Ooh, I think I know the answer!

No.

[SterlingRed]

I'm a lot late chiming in here, life's been busy, StarCraft has been fun, excuses excuses yada yada.

I think the only proper way to make a decision on the future of modding minecraft or make a new game is for FC to make the choice based on what his own interests are. Yes btw has a large following, but btw came about as a result of what flower child wanted to play and create personally. Then like minded players picked it up as well, not the other way around. So fc, I would encourage you to make your choice based on what will be most enjoyable for yourself, and don't let what may or may not be best for the existing community drive your decision.
The only way btw/Rth can continue to be enjoyable for players is if the developer truly enjoys creating it. The only way you can do that is to create what you personally enjoy and let that drive your decisions. Whichever way you decide, you are essentially creating a new mod/game and the community behind it will change in either case. Some will leave and new ones will come. I'd say its probably safe you'll keep the core players. So don't base your choice largely on the existing community as this next venture you are headed towards may not have the same audience. (Except for a lot of the people here, and they'd be with you either way).

Another point I haven't seen brought up yet is funding. I know initially you didn't want $ for the mod as you didn't want $ to drive your choices. However, if you build a full blown game, myself and I'm sure many other players, would be more than willing to buy it like we do with any other game we play. After all, booze and cigs are essential! I suppose the donation model will still work though.

I think there's potential for you to build the first serious competitor (3d block based open world game) to minecraft. I'm excited to see where this goes.

[FlowerChild]

Client side port to 1.4.7 is done, now onto the server.

[Ulfengaard]

Thanks, FC! *cheers*

[FlowerChild]

And the server is done. Going to have some lunch, then test further and package it.