Flower's Dev Diary (Week of December 31st)

[Locke]

I'm happy you are getting a chance to relax. Chill out as long as you want, we can suffer having to wait for a new release. :P

[FlowerChild]

It sure is selfish.

Not at all man. I'm all about enlightened self interest. The community and I obviously have a symbiotic relationship going on where we're both getting something positive out of the deal.

I think it would be a good point to mentally add up how much time and energy all the collective bits of drama plus painful vMC update/migrations including having to account for stupid features have added up to over the last year/year and a half and consider. Is it more that the few months of infrastructure work you would be commiting to on your own game? And then consider the design freedom those months could buy you. It looks to me like going your own way is a clear win and that's why I've always supported it.

Yup, that's pretty much what this process consists of for me in thinking this all through.

On the time consumed side, we have one big one:

-The cost in development time to create a new game upon which to base my work.

On the time gained side we have:

-Time saved not having to update and adapt a mod to any changes vanilla makes.

-Time saved not dealing with partially obfuscated code and with MCP name changes.

-Time saved not having to deal with MC community drama.

-Time saved not dealing with the after effects of said drama, as it *does* take a big toll on me, as we see here recently, and in the worst cases (like the Yogaboo invasion) I may have lost months of potential work on them.

-Time saved not sweating over the technical limitations of MC.

-Time saved not dealing with installation tech support (at least not to the same degree), compatibility requests, discussions about integration/elimination of vanilla features, requests for options, etc. which I think are largely all vMC specific support issues.

-Time saved on supporting vMC's optional game-modes, and having to design around them, even to the limited extent that I do.

-Time gained by me being happier not dealing with all that bullshit, and thus being more productive, more able to focus on my work, and able to work for longer stretches.

Now, the question this largely comes down to is if all those smaller factors add up to something approximating the cost, and especially with this BWF nonsense, I'm leaning more and more towards thinking that it does. It's been a long time since we've gotten a dose of drama this big, and I perhaps may have hoped that we would never see anything like that again, but I think it's becoming clear to me now that it will never go away as long as I am tied to MC.

[johnt]

So many people have slapped together minecraft clones at this point that I can't imagine it would take a huge amount of time to build one from scratch, especially since you have an endpoint in mind, unlike notch when he was creating it.

[FlowerChild]

So many people have slapped together minecraft clones at this point that I can't imagine it would take a huge amount of time to build one from scratch, especially since you have an endpoint in mind, unlike notch when he was creating it.

Well, keep in mind I'm not just going to duplicate vMC functionality here as many of those clones do (and only partially or poorly do).

If I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this right and architect it from the ground up to do exactly what I want. I've been putting a lot of thought into that aspect over the past few days actually, in the attempt to be able to try and generate a better time estimate for myself on how long I can expect this to take. Obviously, the time it will take is crucial in me evaluating whether it is the right route to go.

For example, one of the things I'm spending a lot of time considering right now is the potential data format, since the technical side of MC largely comes down to pushing around huge amounts of variable data to create its dynamic world.

As you know, the 4 bits of metadata in MC determines a HUGE amount of the functionality that the player winds up with in the end. Thus, I want to make sure that I push that aspect as far as I can given modern technology and my own optimization abilities, as it will largely determine the palette of colors at my disposal in creating the painting that is the game's design.

[Gormador]

It sure is selfish.

Not at all man. I'm all about enlightened self interest. The community and I obviously have a symbiotic relationship going on where we're both getting something positive out of the deal.

-snipe-

I like the way you're wording it : "enlightened self interest". It represents exactly what I apparently failed to express :-)

As for the rest of your post, I would say that drama won't stop. So IMO the time you will save by going solo is potentially much greater than the necessitated time to develop a new platform. But it sure is a huge decision to make.

[FlowerChild]

I like the way you're wording it : "enlightened self interest". It represents exactly what I apparently failed to express :-)

Well, you'll note how often I get called "selfish" by the MC community at large (despite providing free content for a year and a half, and often being called so by people that have contributed squat...but whatever).

I think that largely originates because I *do* acknowledge my own desires and self-interest as important criteria in any decision I make. You'll notice how often I weigh my own mental state and motivation into various options I am considering, which I don't think is something that many people do, and thus people's knee-jerk reaction to it is to view it as "selfish".

However, I have experienced enough in my life to know my own motivations, what drives me, and what holds me back. I also know well enough that if I refuse to acknowledge those aspects of myself out of an altruistic impulse, I'll ultimately fail in my own goals due to loss of interest or desire, including those goals which may be considered altruistic in a certain sense to begin with (like modding and releasing that work to the public).

I've stated very clearly from the start of making BTW that I am in no way a martyr. I do this for my own reasons, and I'll always place those before the desires of others because those are the very things that keep me going. I've also been one of the people that has kept going the longest in being able to do this, despite I suspect facing more adversity than most along the way due to being willing to take a strong principled stance on various issues, and my willingness to say "no".

So yes, "enlightened self interest" is a concept that I've put a great deal of thought into over the course of my life, and I do not frown in the slightest towards people that clearly state their own motivations in something. Rather, I tend to become suspicious of people when they don't.

[Wafflewaffle]

I've been putting a lot of thought into that aspect over the past few days actually, in the attempt to be able to try and generate a better time estimate for myself on how long I can expect this to take. Obviously, the time it will take is crucial in me evaluating whether it is the right route to go.

Can i ask you something? All of this is really big. A decision like this is hard to take. How are you going about putting you thoughts in order? Are you writing cons and pros lists, having a conversation with yourself at the mirror (believe me it helps), brainstorming in a dark room or getting drunk and waiting for an epiphany? Im not trying to be a dick, just curious. Im always facinated with the way people think and your brain is quite hard follow, even though the results of your thinking process are undeniably successful.

[FlowerChild]

Can i ask you something? All of this is really big. A decision like this is hard to take. How are you going about putting you thoughts in order? Are you writing cons and pros lists, having a conversation with yourself at the mirror (believe me it helps), brainstorming in a dark room or getting drunk and waiting for an epiphany? Im not trying to be a dick, just curious. Im always facinated with the way people think and your brain is quite hard follow, even though the results of your thinking process are undeniably successful.

Hehe...I just think it through man, and occasionally jot down a bullet point on my todo list for RTH when I have a design idea I don't want to let slip through the cracks.

Don't worry man, again, it's not a context you guys really know me in, but I'm used to regularly making crucial decisions on multi million dollar projects, and started doing so at a rather young age. My own personal process for thinking through important and complex decisions is well established.

[wyyve]

Hey FC I support your decision though I ask would you consider handing control over to someone to update to each new version of MC i love your mod and would love to keep playing the real BTW.

[FlowerChild]

Hey FC I support your decision though I ask would you consider handing control over to someone to update to each new version of MC i love your mod and would love to keep playing the real BTW.

Dude...seriously, read to OP.

Especially the last line which reads:

Oh, and in case any of you are wondering, none of the above affects my ongoing support of BTW. Whether I create a new mod, make RTH an extension of BTW (which seems less and less likely as time goes on), or make my own game, I will continue to support and update BTW for the indefinite future.

BTW isn't going anywhere.

[Panda]

BTW isn't going anywhere.

I love your detication, and this is why in my eyes, you are the biggest slice of cake :D

[MoRmEnGiL]

Hmm.. May I butt in here to say..

Is time all this important? I mean it sure is a big investment on your part, but, to use an analogy, putting off a pc format and just dealing with the various issues your pc has does not exactly solve any problems.

I'm not going to talk about the economic aspect of it, as we are living in weird times where games make heaps of money out of nowhere, and triple A games fail, a time where stupid gimmicky games catch on, while great ideas fade to obscurity, all based on rather fickle chances and situations. It sure is a risk/reward you have to calculate, and only you yourself can do it.

However, I don't think time should be such a big issue for you, unless it is something completely out of hand of course, rather the amount of effort and feasibility feels more important. You are not on a time schedule, so working on your own game does not mean you cannot take a break and have some fun with btw (since it is not being abandoned) if you get tired with gruntwork. MC style games are still not really all that common, heck there is not a single one that has had any success, so this is not a big factor atm, or at least that's what I feel, there is not a narrow window of opportunity here, it is very much a genre in its infancy. And you're not even THAT old :P

You obviously have your own rhymes and reasons, and I've never seen you do something without careful thinking, so I'm sure you will do what is right, I'm just giving my perspective on the issue.

[mc_dunedin]

"Now, the question this largely comes down to is if all those smaller factors add up to something approximating the cost, and especially with this BWF nonsense, I'm leaning more and more towards thinking that it does."

I think you already have found the answer. Unless there is anything on the horizon that makes the current misery disappear, you're gonna keep leaning that way. Might as well cut your losses and get on with it.


edit:
@MoRmEnGiL
I think time = time spend developing interesting stuff = fun

[someonetobe]

Much love, FC.

The best investment of your time right now, as you have already established you well know, is figuring out what the next best investment of your time will be. I think you'll enjoy this process itself, as it is the very bowels of design. You are already in a crucial design process. And I'm happy I get to see that run its course.

I'm working on setting up a youtube partnership. And I selfishly enjoy the fact that I will be able to have a niche already by playing BTW. Any future decisions you make also help me, because you are likely to create fun and unique assets for me to use. And once I get rolling, I hopefully benefit others by introducing them to great content, so they can selfishly watch me selfishly playing your selfishly created content.

I'm actually a bit happy about this. Not that you are suffering. I hate suffering. I'm happy instead that the bandaid is going to get pulled off, one way or another. That your current difficulties will be resolved by your choice and a new chapter begun. I really hope you continue to allow us along for the ride.

Philip

[chaoticneutral]

Just dropping by to say: hey man, you know you're great at what you do. Be it a new mod or a separated game, you have my trust.

[xou816]

You know, as long as you go for a similar game (I should rather say, with the same key aspects) and that it works on Linux (oh forget this condition, if there is the need to, I'll buy myself a Windows comp' *sigh*), you can consider your project as "xou816's approved"!

I almost consider you already as MC's maker. Somewhat.
Indeed, without BTW, MC is not MC. Let me explain:

MC is about player creativity, right?
* In Vanilla, my worlds would usually end up with a few small houses, barely enough to store chests. I would get bored after a few diamonds and would be like: nothing to except going for a dragon in the End? Meh
* With BTW, I've suddenly started to build dozens of buildings, a windmill one, a mob trap, a wolf dung farm, a waterwheel one, a glass house to grow hemp (in game, Mr. Policeman, in game!)... etc.

MC has a powerful built-in logic system, redstone.
* In Vanilla, I think I never used redstone for something greater than a door with pistons. That's it.
* With BTW, I learned some of the basics of redstone, actually liked it, and used it to help myself in automating things.

An MC world is endless and offers various biomes to explore, as well as villages and such.
* In Vanilla, I would never explore. Or rarely.
* With BTW, I've come to explore to find wolves, cows, chickens, or fortresses in the Nether (I didn't care about them previously).

Long story short, you made MC a full game. MC is nothing to me without BTW. Thank you!
So yeah, do what you want, but if you go for your own game... Then you've got yourself my approval.
And the time argument... I think that once you'll have fully started with your project, you'll start to like it and you'll develop even faster. And in case we get bored in the meantime... we'll still have BTW to play with.

[CrafterOfMines57]

I can't discern whether cpw's tweet was intended for this or not.

Pride does strange things sometimes. In other news it would be a sad loss for mc modding, if true.

[FlowerChild]

I can't discern whether cpw's tweet was intended for this or not.

Reference link?

[The Phoenixian]

Link to CPW's above tweet.

[Sarudak]

Sounds like maybe a reference to mods not willing to go forge? Although it's really obscure/generic I'm not really sure what he's talking about and from the responses he got I think most people reading it weren't either.

[FlowerChild]

Sounds like maybe a reference to mods not willing to go forge? Although it's really obscure/generic I'm not really sure what he's talking about and from the responses he got I think most people reading it weren't either.

The Forge crowd are fans of making ambiguous references to BTW instead of just directly saying what they mean. If you read through some of his former tweets, he's obviously bitching about me/BTW but "doesn't want to get into it...yada yada", while doing precisely that. I think it's some kind of modern cowardly way of portraying oneself as a "good guy".

No idea if that specific tweet quoted above was about BTW, but it's certainly possible, and would be consistent.

[Sarudak]

I probably shouldn't but I get consistently annoyed when people imply that the members of this community are some kind of mindless drones that always agree with everything you say...

[FlowerChild]

I probably shouldn't but I get consistently annoyed when people imply that the members of this community are some kind of mindless drones that always agree with everything you say...

Hehe...yeah, I saw a tweet from Searge of MCP to that effect.

Actually, it's worth a laugh, so here it is:

I'd rather have no community at all than a community of people only saying and doing things that I like and agreeing to every word I say.

Why it's humorous, is that the conflict between him a few weeks ago and I started with him personally attacking me and saying I should have quit MC modding because he was pissed I was criticizing the Forge. I in turn thought he was being a total ass for advertising Forge in the MCF Modloader thread while Risu was working on updating it to a new version of MC.

When I went to discuss it with him on the MCP IRC, he then proceeded to try and strong arm me into never criticizing the Forge again, by saying he wouldn't personally attack me if I remained silent on it, which of course I flatly refused.

So yeah, to see him say the above after he attempted to totally silence the dissent I was expressing towards the Forge gave me a real lol moment.

The layers of hypocrisy in this whole debacle are way over my head by now.

[FlowerChild]

Actually, if I'm going to get into this part of it, I'll provide the IRC chat logs for the incident I am referring to so people can see what happened for themselves:

Spoiler

Show

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Session Start (FlowerChild:#mcp): Sat Oct 27 16:27:20 2012 -0600
*** FlowerChild has joined #mcp
*** Topic on #mcp is: MCP 7.19 for 1.4.2 is released! | Current releases: (Link: http://mcp.ocean-labs.de/index.php/MCP_Releases)http://mcp.ocean-labs.de/index.php/MCP_Releases | For info, links, and rules: (Link: http://mcp.ocean-labs.de/index.php/MCP_Channel_Info)http://mcp.ocean-labs.de/index.php/MCP_Channel_Info | Modding chat at #mcp-modding and #risucraft
*** Topic set by Fesh0r!~asmcrae@fesh.geek.nz (10/25/2012 at 7:22 AM)
<FlowerChild> Searge, the moderators are all over our posts, so popped by to talk with you
<FlowerChild> is this the appropriate place?
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<+ThVortex> Is this in a Reddit forum?
<@Searge> FlowerChild, I should post it again in a place where the mcf mods have no access
<@Searge> then, after you read it, we can discuss it if you like
<FlowerChild> well, I read through your post, and was only informed it was deleted when I went to respond through quote :)
<FlowerChild> so yes, I read it
<FlowerChild> a couple of points I wanted to make: I don't intentionally work towards incompatibility
<@Searge> ok, so you were faster than the mod
<FlowerChild> the headline on my thread was a tongue in cheek way of me saying I no longer support it from when I quit the Forge
<@Searge> btw, it's your choise if you want to stay here or take it to a more private place
<FlowerChild> nah, it's cool man, I'd rather keep it public
<@Searge> I feel comfortable here, too
<FlowerChild> and btw: I bear zero ill will towards you whatsoever, I want to state that up front
<FlowerChild> and as I mentioned in my other posts, I've always had a great deal of respect for you and your work
<FlowerChild> yes, I am an isolationist, and do not really want to be part of an overall modding community, but that's simply my nature and my preference as a dev
<@Searge> well, I think I made clear that I'm not looking for a fight either, but these days a lot of things related to the modding communities make me rather angry
<FlowerChild> the few times I've stopped by here to ask for help, it's always been with an attitude of respect towards you and the MCP team
<FlowerChild> as they do with me man
<FlowerChild> you're just not, and never have been, a part of that for me
<FlowerChild> I haven't always agreed with your decisions, but any time I've stated that it's been with a disclaimer of how valuable your work is
<+Krenair> Would someone mind filling me in on what's going on here? I'm interested
<@Searge> later, Krenair, right now it's just two people discussing
<FlowerChild> ok, so to the topic at hand: as I said, I do not intentionally make my mod incompatible with others
<FlowerChild> what I don't do is actively *support* compatibility as a feature
<@Searge> well, the subtitle of your mod implies that, kind of
<FlowerChild> at no point have I made a decision, or written code, that intentionally messes with compatibility
<FlowerChild> again, that was a tongue in cheek response to people pestering the shit out of me when I left Forge
<FlowerChild> I had a huge fan-base attacking me for that constantly, so at one point, my response was to create that headline and dig my heels into the ground
<FlowerChild> as you know, I was one of the founding members of Forge, so I certainly wasn't opposing compatibility there
*** Syronin has quit IRC: Quit: Leaving
<FlowerChild> push just came to shove, and I decided to step away, leaving myself in a very unpopluar position
<@Searge> it's just the way people understand it when they see what you write, stating that btw is incompatible, makign sure everyone knows you don't like forge, everything else I don't want to state in detail, it just looks like someone doesn't care about the players
<FlowerChild> heck, I still use ModLoader, so obviously I am concerned with base-line compatibility
<FlowerChild> otherwise, it would be much easier for me to just maintain my own hooks to do the same thing
<FlowerChild> I have continued to release new features for and maintain a huge mod for the past year and a half, and I am sure you are aware of the work that entails
<FlowerChild> does me not caring about the players seem like a serious possibility?
<FlowerChild> smoke...brb
<@Searge> I've ignore Forge for most of the time in the past, now I started using it for some things and I really like it, so, even though I'm in no way involved in Forge development, I support the project
<@Searge> and I was really happy to see that working together on the 1.4.x updates did not even get MCP done before the official release, but also FML and Forge - everyhing was ready before the official update got to the users
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<@Searge> (I'll come to the "care about players" part in a sec)
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<FlowerChild> yup, and I think that's awesome
<@Searge> anyway, reading your statements about bloat and slow updates in that thread just looked like intentionally trying to make Forge look bad, because everything updated fairly fast, even for 1.3.2
<FlowerChild> I do believe MCP was updated in record time this time around, and that I haven't seen it done so fast before
<FlowerChild> for 1.3.2 yes, but not for 1.3
<FlowerChild> I'm sure you are aware that Risu updated to 1.3 WAAAAY before Forge ever did...by about two weeks
<FlowerChild> if you take a look at how long it took BC and IC to update after that, I think it does represent that bloat that I've been talking about
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<@Searge> well, as far as I understand it, your opinion is that forge deals with too many base classes
<FlowerChild> and that bloat was one of the reasons I originally left, and one of the original sources of conflict between me and one of the other founders
<FlowerChild> yes it is Searge, too many, and for the wrong reasons
<@Searge> that's right as far as it's many, but in my opinion, not even enough
<FlowerChild> but I think that's a fairly common technical debate between programmers
<FlowerChild> yup, I realize that I'm in the minority believing that, however, it doesn't make me stating my opinion on it any less valid
*** Kryword has quit IRC: Client Quit
<FlowerChild> and I don't think us being on opposite sides of such a technical debate is a reason for hostility between us personally
<@Searge> nope, it's not
<FlowerChild> glad we're in agreement there man, because again...respect
*** Kilobyte is now known as Kilooff
<@Searge> we can even prevent from attacking each other again completely fairly easy without ignoring each other
<FlowerChild> I think the extent to which an API...of any kind...should be modifying the code upon which it is based is a VERY common debate under such circumstances
<FlowerChild> I'm all ears :)
<@Searge> I won't complain about BTW anymore, even though I hate the fact I can't play it, because I won't play it without the other mods
<@Searge> all I'm asking for is, if you left Forge behind, complete the process, right now you are still not completely "forge-less" becaue you still tell everyone how bad it is in your opinion
<@Searge> it's one thing to ignore something because you don't like it, but it's something else if you start talking bad about it at every occasion
<FlowerChild> no, I'm sorry man, I say this with all due respect, but I won't silence myself on what I view as an important issue to modders, even to maintain the peace
<FlowerChild> and it is an issue that continues to affect me directly, because the more mods join Forge, the less compatibility I can maintain
<@Searge> from my point of view it looks like you have some personal issues with forge, because as far as I can see it the technical points are not valid anymore
<FlowerChild> we're in disagreement on the technical points, and I think we've established this, and yes, I most certainly do have personal issues with the Forge.  I think those are fairly well known :)
<@Searge> well, you have to decide if you want compatibility or not, but I can't understand " because the more mods join Forge, the less compatibility I can maintain" in the light of your statement that you do not care about compatibility with anything else
<FlowerChild> I didn't say I don't care: I said I don't support it
<FlowerChild> once I left the Forge I was faced with a very rough choice of fighting a losing battle to try and maintain compatibility, despite it taking an increasing amount of work
<FlowerChild> so, I made the choice to focus on gameplay rather than compatibility
<FlowerChild> but again, continued to try and maintain at least a base-line through continuing to use ModLoader
<@Searge> ok, then let me ask you a question
<FlowerChild> shoot
<@Searge> what exactly is the incompatibility with forge right now? just so I understand why it's much work to make it compatible
<@Searge> (not saying you should do it, just to understand)
<FlowerChild> oh, that wouldn't be much work.  I could probably rejoin the Forge with a weekend of work
<FlowerChild> however, I largely don't use Forge out of principal
<@Searge> nt talking about using forge
<FlowerChild> and given that I am not willing to use it, then THAT is what makes compatibility a huge amount of work
<@Searge> I want to know, how much work is it actually to be compatible without using forge
<FlowerChild> yikes...that would be far more work than just rejoining it
<FlowerChild> and it would be an ongoing maintenance task
<FlowerChild> I tried it for awhile in working on BTB
<FlowerChild> hold on, let me check the num of base-class mods I'm currently making
*** Genolo has quit IRC: Ping timeout: 190 seconds
<FlowerChild> currently around 110 base classes modified
<@Searge> ok
<FlowerChild> so yeah, that gives you an idea of the work involved :)
<@Searge> are they all conflicting with forge or only some of them?
<FlowerChild> well, not all obviously, but I'd probably hazard a guess that probably around 50% do
<@Searge> ok
<FlowerChild> to my knowledge there's still a number of my hooks floating around in the Forge
<FlowerChild> so yeah, we were modifying a lot of the same base classes, even back then
<@Searge> so if there were a way to make your mod work with other mods, also with forge mods, without using forge and without changing much in the code, what would that change for you?
<FlowerChild> well, the main thing is it would compromise the integrity of the design of my mod
<FlowerChild> the second layer of this issue, is I'm not unhappy with the current situation
<FlowerChild> as it encourages people to play my mod as it is intended
<FlowerChild> i.e. alone
<FlowerChild> I would however prefer to be more compatible with utility mods
<FlowerChild> like, the last mods I really made an effort to retain compatibility with were MCPatcher, and Optifine
<FlowerChild> that is slowly slipping away now though
<@Searge> ok, so that's a real problem, because now you tell me that it's more important for you to have the mod played the way you want it and not let the players decide how they want to play it
<FlowerChild> yup, that is true, and I'm happy to discuss that if you like
<@Searge> well, there is not much to discuss, usually it does not make sense to look for solution in such a case, because there aren't any
<FlowerChild> you ever play table-top roleplaying games like D&D?
<@Searge> the compatibility is something that can be solved with code
<@Searge> a designer who prefers people play by his rules, not their rules, that's something I can't fix
<FlowerChild> that's a serious question btw, related to this discussion
<@Searge> I used to play D&D, not anymore
<FlowerChild> ok cool, I just wanted to make sure there was a common basis here for the point I wanted to make
<FlowerChild> there are different kinds of DM's out there.  There are those for whom someone deciding they want to bring a laser-gun into a medieval fantasy game would be just fine
<FlowerChild> there are other DM's that will certainly not want that
<@Searge> the more important fact about me is that I'm a game developer and game designer, worked in the game industry for 10 years and have a very strong opinion about good and bad game desing
<FlowerChild> and in their view, doing so will spoil there player's own fun
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<FlowerChild> it's not a cock-fight statement, but I was in the industry for 15, and have about a dozen commercial titles under my belt
<FlowerChild> I also have strong views :)
<@Searge> ok, now, let me ask you a question related to this
<FlowerChild> well, if I can finish my point
<@Searge> what would you think minecraft would be today if notch would've killed any attempt to mod it in the first place?
<@Searge> you can finish it, ofc, sorry
<FlowerChild> such a DM will not allow the laser-gun into their campaign, not to act against the player's fun, but in order to preserve it
<FlowerChild> that is my attitude towards this
<FlowerChild> I consider many other mods, in combination with BTW, to act counter to the player's own fun
<@Searge> ok
<@Searge> that's a very important point
<FlowerChild> and as a responsible DM/Designer, I do not think it is unreasonable for me to prefer that they don't do that, and to encourage that the game be played in the way that I intend with my design
<FlowerChild> there is no malice in that whatsoever
<@Searge> because you say that you know what is most fun for the players and so you make sure they can't spoil their own fun, for their best
<FlowerChild> yup, pretty much
<FlowerChild> *my* players anyways
<FlowerChild> I design for a very specific group, that actually thank me for such things
<FlowerChild> I am not designing for the community as a whole, nor do I think I should
<@Searge> ok, my opinion is quite the opposite, but I think you've already guessed it
<FlowerChild> yup, and I'm totally cool with that man.  To me, we're just two different kinds of DM's, and individual players will ultimately have their own preference
<@Searge> the games that are most fun for players are those that are meant to be played in a certain way, but can also be played in other ways
<FlowerChild> you can see it in some of my recent design decisions.  This isn't just about compatibility
<FlowerChild> for example, disabling F3 co-ordinates, or Beds
<@Searge> best example is cheating in sp games
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<FlowerChild> yes, but generally it is bad design to make it so easy to cheat that even players that don't want to are lured into it
<FlowerChild> seriously man, I've received thanks many times from my community for the mod's incompatibility with others
<@Searge> my opinion is, tell them it's a bad idea, but don't prevent it, because for some of them it's a fun way to play
<FlowerChild> it introduced a whole group of players to a style of play they wouldn't have experienced otherwise
<FlowerChild> and my opinion differs :)
<FlowerChild> but again, I'm appealing to a certain kind of player
<FlowerChild> basically, players like me
<FlowerChild> that want a well-defined cohesive gameplay experience from their mod that integrates as seamlessly as possible with vanilla
<FlowerChild> smoke...brb
<@Searge> well, as long as that is the case, I can respect it and will just ignore the fact that btw exists, because it's not appealing to me if that's how it works
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<@Searge> then all that's left to say is, I would aprpeciate it if you would not talk bad about things you don't use or like (forge) and if that's not possible at least stay with the facts, as long as that's the case you won't see any more "attacks" from me anymore, but if you state incorrect information to make things look worse than they are, expect me to correct you (and it can happen with harsh words) :)
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<FlowerChild> well, let's talk about the incorrect information then
<FlowerChild> what have I stated that is incorrect?
<FlowerChild> and really man, I have no problem with you disagreeing with me whatsoever, I'd just really prefer we not cross the line into ad hominem
<@Searge> well, I would not stop disagreeing if it were a problem for you :p
<FlowerChild> in saying that my arguments came down to ego, and basically that I should leave modding, that wasn't arguing against what I was saying: it was arguing against me personally
<FlowerChild> disagreement is great man, and I wouldn't ask you to stop
<FlowerChild> but there's no much I can say to ad hominem remarks other than to respond with the same
<FlowerChild> and in your case, I really don't want to do that
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<@Searge> well, as I said forge is not really bloated as far as I can tell, elo is not involved in forge development anymore and forge players are not installing kitchen sinks in their jars
<FlowerChild> ok, I think we've covered the bloating thing in that it boils down to differing technical perspectives
<FlowerChild> which is fine in my books
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<FlowerChild> *to my knowledge* Elo is still involved, at least that's what Lex told me a few months ago
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<FlowerChild> she withdrew publicly, but not in actual practice
<FlowerChild> and with regards to players installing everything and the kitchen sink, I just saw some guy remark in the ML MCF thread that he had 110 mods installed (or something in that neighborhood), which I think qualifies :)
<@Searge> even if that were true, in my opinion it should not matter for you at all who works on forge and who doesn't because you do not use it and it does not change anything for anyone else
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<FlowerChild> from my standpoint though: it does.  I originally left Forge largely because of Elo's competitive practices
<FlowerChild> from my standpoint, that's still happening
<FlowerChild> so to me, it is entirely relevant to devs making the decision as to whether they want to use it or not
<@Searge> well, that's a personal reason, not a technical, and that's the reason why I kindly asked you to just keep it private and especially not bring it up when it comes to discussing if forge is good or bad for modders and players
<FlowerChild> it's not really personal man, there were multiple mod devs that felt the same way I did
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<FlowerChild> I won't betray personal confidences in getting into who they are and what they said, but I'm sure if you search online around the time period it all happened, you'll realize I really wasn't alone
<FlowerChild> a lot of people felt betrayed by her actions, and that largely shaped everything that has happened since
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<FlowerChild> the one big difference with me is that I never felt hesitant to state my views publicly
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<@Searge> well, I do not care if there is one person or 100 people who share your opinion, if you can't stop telling people forge is bad, that's ok if you have technical reasons, but if you keep mixing personal opinions with technical reasons, don't be surprised if people do not always write you nice replies
<DarkSnake> still crying?
<FlowerChild> I'm not asking you to be nice man, again, I'm asking for this not to descend into ad hominem
<FlowerChild> like that guy :)
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<FlowerChild> I don't think anything positive can come out of us attacking each other's character
<@Searge> well, I do not plan to be nice, because until I can play your mod the way I want, I will probably just ignore it (and you) after this discussion ;)
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<FlowerChild> not much I can say to that man, but again, can we least agree to keep it away from ad hominem?
<@Searge> my offer is, keep personal and technical reasons separate in the future when you discuss modding related topics in public and everything should be ok
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<@Searge> apparently we have different opinions about the design of modding tools, so no need to discuss them in detail
<FlowerChild> well, I think we disagree on what is personal here, and again, sorry man, but I won't silence my opinions even to avoid conflict between us, as much as I hate the potential for it
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<FlowerChild> and I think there is a rather large difference between debating the use of an API, and hurling personal insults
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<FlowerChild> it is the latter I would prefer we avoided
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<FunnyMan3595> FlowerChild: Except that you're not objecting to the API, you're objecting to the people behind it.
<FunnyMan3595> That's *already* personal.
<@Searge> all I'm saying is, I can see a lot more mods using forge in the future and nothing you do will change it, so I can see your compatibility with other mods will reduce even more
<FunnyMan3595> If you want to make the distinction, hold to it.
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<FlowerChild> that's fine Searge.  Again, all I'm asking is to avoid personal attacks such as the one you posted
<FlowerChild> Again, I've never said a derogatory thing about you
<briman0094> can i see this so-called "personal attack?"
<DarkSnake> Just found this *whistles*
<DarkSnake> (Link: http://memegenerator.net/instance/24051009)http://memegenerator.net/instance/24051009
<DarkSnake> PS: didn't make it >_>
<FlowerChild> (Link: http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1533999-opinion-on-forge/page__st__140#entry18807945)http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1533999-opinion-on-forge/page__st__140#entry18807945
<briman0094> OMG HILARIOUS
<@Searge> well, I told you it was intentional, because I wanted to make a point, I saw you attack people personally and that's why I answered that way
<FlowerChild> that's the post we're talking about
<@Searge> I think we can agree that there is no need to repeat it
<briman0094> Searge's post isn't a personal attack
<briman0094> imho
<FlowerChild> Fair enough.  I find your justification of it rather hard to swallow, but if we're in agreement that it won't happen again, then I'm good with it
<@Searge> briman0094, actually you should read it before making a statement :)
<briman0094> i read it
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<DarkSnake> ^
<briman0094> Searge's part does not seem like a personal attack. It is a statement of opinion.
<@Searge> It would be very ignorant to insist that my last sentence is not a personal attack
<briman0094> ?
<briman0094> the last part of the EDIT?
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<@Searge> anyway, I'm not here to discuss it with anyone else, glad you came by to talk to me about it, FlowerChild
<DarkSnake> anyways, I didn't come here to take part in this, have fun. ;-)
<briman0094> both posts (FC's and Searge's reply) seem sarcastic and exaggerated
<briman0094> yes, have fun
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<@Searge> send me a pm as soon as btw is forge compatible :p
<Cojo> if you didn't come here to take part in it, why did you? just let them talk
<@Searge> (I can wait)
<DarkSnake> Cojo: Potatoe.
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<+Krenair> DarkSnake: Behave please.
<DarkSnake> Huh?
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<DarkSnake> Okay.... err.. ok... sure.
<FlowerChild> yup, I'm glad we took the time to discuss it to Searge
<FlowerChild> and since i haven't really done so in the past, I'd like to thank you for all the work that you've put into MCP...I very much appreciate it
<@Searge> yw
<DarkWolf> why doesn't btw use forge though, since the major 1.3 rewrite the mod updates have been on the order of minutes to hours. seems it would be useful to you to not have to keep porting edits?
<@Searge> we try to be compatible with ALL mods :p
<FlowerChild> mind if I ask a quick technical question while I'm here?
<@Searge> if it's a question I can answer, sure
<FlowerChild> yeah, I think it is: I'm currently stiill using JAD as of 1.3.  Will this become problematic in the future?
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<@Searge> well, we do not make jad patches anymore
<FlowerChild> ok, so if I keep copying jad patches from old releases into the new, what issues can I expect?
<@Searge> so if you want to use it, it will work, but you have to deal with decompile errors yourself
<@Searge> you can expect *boooom*
<FlowerChild> hehe...that's what I was wondering about
<@Searge> if it were so easy, we would just keep making them
<FlowerChild> it worked with the 1.3 releases, but I had a big question mark next to whether it would keep working
<@Searge> there are 90% that just apply
<@Searge> but the other patches not just fail, they can in the worst case make the game behave incorrect
<FlowerChild> fair enough...the move to Fernflower represents a significant refactor, so I was trying to figure out if I should schedule that as part of my porting tasks to 1.4
<@Searge> well, 1.3 -> 1.3.2 was not a problem
<FlowerChild> yup, that was the deal...I was using the 1.3 patches in 1.3.2 without (noticeable) issue
<@Searge> you will have a hard time in the future if you don't migrate now
<FlowerChild> yeah, I'll schedule it then.  I'd rather get it done now than add additional maintenance tasks in the future
<@Searge> too bad you are not interested in my technical solution for compatibility
<FlowerChild> I'm primarily a C++ programmer, so many of these technical details are beyond my previous experience
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<@Searge> it is based on "no base edits at all"
<FlowerChild> well, I'm interested in hearing about it anyways :)
<DarkSnake> FC: Y NO BUCKETS?!?
<DarkSnake> D:
<DarkWolf> Shutit
<@Searge> as soon as you tell me it can be used to make btw compatible with other mods, I may tell you details, sorry, but that's the deal
<DarkSnake> >_>
<+Krenair> DarkWolf: Please stop making yourself look like an idiot. Thanks.
<+Krenair> Sorry, that was meant for DarkSnake.
<DarkSnake> Krenair: Stop that. Im not doing that.
<DarkSnake> >_>
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<FlowerChild> no worries Searge.  Was interested more academically than practically :)
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<@Searge> you can always look at the code once it's released ;)
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<FlowerChild> but thanks for answering the JAD related question, as that clears up an outstanding issue for me
<@Searge> ok, I'll go now, have to work on my forge mod before I go to bed
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<FlowerChild> yup, same here.  Later man
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Session Close (#mcp): Sat Oct 27 17:50:07 2012 -0600

Later on, he then PM'd me on MCF saying he wanted nothing to do with me and implying I had somehow broken the terms of our agreement or something by criticizing him within the Modloader MCF thread for advertising the Forge as a substitute.

As you can see from the above however, I absolutely never made any such agreement to stay silent. The only thing I was trying to do in talking to him over IRC is to limit our disagreement to not include ad hominem attacks. Since then I've remained relatively quiet on him, but looking over his twitter account, he's obviously decided to jump on the anti-FC/Forge bandwagon, while doing the "good guy" thing I describe above in not just directly saying he's talking about BTW while it is very obvious that he is.

Honestly, I'm getting fucked from all ends here. I've kept silent on parts of that so as not to generate further conflict, but yeah...it's pretty fucking bad. It looks like there has been some kind of weird shift overall within the MC community where middleware developers are somehow more valued than actual content creators, and have the egos to match.

[8bitBob]

Hmm... I'm not usually one to read into things, but these three tweets from cpw seem to be a little obvious in their underlying meaning.

Pride does strange things sometimes. In other news it would be a sad loss for mc modding, if true..

MC modding is changing, permanently. Wishing hard that wouldn't is just blinkered. It is somewhat Darwinian I guess. Adapt or perish?

To which someone responded by asking if that's why SDK's gun mod is gone, and he responded with:

and it is missed by the community, but others are starting to pop up and replace it, as they will *all* the things..

All in all I found reading his twitter to be somewhat unsettling. It may have just been my tinfoil hat frame of mind but I found his talk about 'spectacular goals' felt distinctly Orwellian.