Flower's Dev Diary (Week of November 27th)

[Ferrus.Manus]

Is at least some of the code work you've done in May/April is still useable or will have/choose to rewrite from scratch?

[xou816]

Wow, that's actually a lot to read at once. When I first started up my web browser, I thought it was previous' week diary...^^

Well, I don't know which option to choose. Basically, creating a new world doesn't bother me too much, it is what I did actually when Hardcore Buckets got "official". I didn't regret a lot leaving alone my old world since it felt cheaty, I mean, I had water sources placed before HCB. But I cannot compare my old world to yours which is over developed compared to mine, though I was quite proud of having automated pottery.
So yeah, creating a new world doesn't bother me *that* much.

Better than Wolves RTH or whatever you call it? Sounds like the best option to me; however, I can't imagine Minecraft without the Overworld or something. I didn't especially like the Overworld, but BTW improved its value to me. I don't know how I can explain that, but everything in BTW felt so right in the place with vMC that I actually loved the Overworld. Moreover, I've once played for some time the Aether mod, and it was cool and all the stuff, I didn't stick to it; basically, the Aether was a copy of the Overworld. Of course I'm sure you'll manage to do a great world, but still, you'll have to implement stuff like grass, sand, stone, etc. And a copy of the Overworld (or at least, in the Aether case) doesn't sound that great to me. One last thing with the world thingy is that I'd rather see improvements in the already existing types of world; 2 out 3 of the world types are totally messed up, and I think the Nether is interesting and could be improved (like you did with Blood Trees and Groth).

Finally in the case of a brand new game... Um, apart from the "you'll have to wait months to play BTW again", I'd be a bit disappointed to lose Minecraft as a game. Not that I excessively like vMC, but to me vMC was part of BTW, and not the contrary. I like the look and feel of MC, but still, if ever you decide to make a game yourself, I'm sure we won't be disappointed. One other thing I like with Minecraft is that it runs on my main computer, an Ubuntu one.

I'll think a bit more of all the Home stuff, I'm rather new to BTW and yeah... that's a lot of information to swallow. We'll see what option is the best later :)

[Extreme Boyheat]

This is hucking fuge. :D

[jakerman999]

From my read through of the thread, I see that the sequel concept seems to be the primary choice. It allows all the benefits of going total conversion, and it takes the negatives of losing world saves and brushes them under the rug. It isn't getting rid of them, it's just moving them out of sight, and I think that not many people are recognizing the difference. A point brought up again and again is that you can still revisit those worlds by having a secondary instance with BTW 1. This isn't any different from either the options of going directly into total conversion without finishing the current story, creating something new from scratch leaving MC behind altogether, or from using a version of the extended ID's. It's the same drawback, with a pretty little bow and a card saying that it won't matter.

I'm going to backpedal the thread a little bit, and talk about extended ID's some more. The primary drawbacks to that strategy were: the amount of involved in a system that would(probably) be a wasted time sink once the official solution was presented, and the potential for lost worlds occurring from the same event. I want to address both of these issues with the KISS motif.

Creating a brand new system to handle the extended ID's is not needed. It has been done both with the 4096 block ID bugfix, and in the forge API. Moving to forge is a possibility, but no. Not worth it by any means. You could include the forge code for additional Id's, as you have with the other scraps of forge code that lingered from the migration away, but a better solution would be to use the 4096 bugfix. There might be something more elegant, but I believe this is the simplest method here.

World integrity is the other option. A converter was mentioned as a possible work around to world corruption caused by moving from one system to another. There is no guarantee that Mojang will stay with the anvil format for world saves, but if they do then a world block ID editor already exists. This tool has been seeing steady support, and is open source. This road can be traveled without re-inventing the wheel.

The remaining options discussed are for the most strictly worse than using the sequel method or the extended ID's method, so it largely comes down to the benefits of each of these two implementations, barring some ingenious solution. I'm still working on that last bit, but for now I would like to say that keeping my old world and my new home in the same save is my preferred solution, as the emotional ties I have developed to it can't be told to just sit in the corner while I play with this new install. Also, some of the mechanics suggested for the interaction between home and the overworld(bringing items back at costs in particular) intrigue me, and I feel it would be a better experience than being restricted to having home and the overworld as entirely separate with nothing to link them.

[Flesh_Engine]

Sounds like FC has already decided a best course of action (BTW1 + RTH) and if he's confident that the maintenance on the 'two' mods is feasible he has my vote on that one.
(You can always drop support BTW1 support later on if it becomes a burden or just slow it down)

As to my own idea;
Make the TC like you planned, write a conversion tool for vMC worlds that imports them as an alternate dimension (or maybe just "Vanilla" mode). This causes the "snapshot" effect and still allows you full control.
Downside is of course; are there alternate dimensions in RTH? What's the added benefit of importing something you are largely unable to use in "Home"? Is it worth the hassle compared to the option of BTW1+RTH?
You still need to update the conversion tool when Mojang adds blocks( or changes the worldgen?) or you could just say 'nah' and default unknown blockids to dirt and call it a day.

Frankly, i'm rather happy you posted about this since i had the feeling there was something going on...

[Detritus]

Of course I'm sure you'll manage to do a great world, but still, you'll have to implement stuff like grass, sand, stone, etc. And a copy of the Overworld (or at least, in the Aether case) doesn't sound that great to me.

Why are you assuming it would be a copy of the overworld? Who knows what kind of dark and twisted universe Steve originally inhabited?
From what we've seen so far, it is quite obvious that Steve is an evil being, and so why should he live in a world anything like our own?
The way I envisage Home is nothing like the overworld. I see it as a perpetually dark place, made mostly out of a dark alien substance, with other things interspersed. I really don't think that FC will implement a dimension much like the overworld at all.

[FlowerChild]

This isn't any different from either the options of going directly into total conversion without finishing the current story, creating something new from scratch leaving MC behind altogether, or from using a version of the extended ID's. It's the same drawback, with a pretty little bow and a card saying that it won't matter.

Don't be a dick man. Obviously, it is different in that I'd be continuing to support BTW 1 for the indefinite future meaning that it will still be perfectly playable with whatever the current version of MC is.

There's a huge difference between wrapping up a project like this, giving it a proper conclusion and continuing to support it both in terms of the work involved, and the functionality it will provide.

I'm not trying to gloss it over or sweep it under the rug as you put it, and am willing to go the extra mile to prevent that happening. I really resent you implying otherwise just because it isn't your personal optimal solution. It isn't mine either, but it's way more practical than some of the other suggestions being made here.

[Stormweaver]

So, I went to sleep, and woke up to six new pages. Brilliant. I can't really add anything more than what's been said, so I'll just say I'm happy with whatever you decide to do, and that you should do it.

If the sequel idea is ran with though, I can definitely see the original sticking around for quite a long time; for more casual players who just want to build their medieval castle without ultra-improved mobs of death and random firey deaths. So I'll probably be playing both :3

[xou816]

Of course I'm sure you'll manage to do a great world, but still, you'll have to implement stuff like grass, sand, stone, etc. And a copy of the Overworld (or at least, in the Aether case) doesn't sound that great to me.

Why are you assuming it would be a copy of the overworld? Who knows what kind of dark and twisted universe Steve originally inhabited?
From what we've seen so far, it is quite obvious that Steve is an evil being, and so why should he live in a world anything like our own?
The way I envisage Home is nothing like the overworld. I see it as a perpetually dark place, made mostly out of a dark alien substance, with other things interspersed. I really don't think that FC will implement a dimension much like the overworld at all.

Yeah, you may be right. But still, in the case of BTW 2 or something, there will be no Overworld (if I've read previous posts correctly), so there must be a substitute. But we'll see!

[Detritus]

Yeah, you may be right. But still, in the case of BTW 2 or something, there will be no Overworld (if I've read previous posts correctly), so there must be a substitute. But we'll see!

Yeah, and what I said can still be the substitute. Why does it have to be remotely like Overworld/real world? It can really be whatever, and I highly doubt it will resemble Overworld much at all.

[FlowerChild]

Guys, as always, I would prefer you not to critique unreleased features, as that can be extremely discouraging to me, and given the nature of this discussion, speculation about what Home consists of is not really appropriate.

If the sequel idea is ran with though, I can definitely see the original sticking around for quite a long time; for more casual players who just want to build their medieval castle without ultra-improved mobs of death and random firey deaths. So I'll probably be playing both :3

Yeah, I agree with you there. I intend to make RTH (whatever form it takes) very hardcore, so there will definitely be some people that doesn't appeal to.

Also, it would likely take me quite a long time (as in months) to get it up to the same level as BTW in terms of the depth of the experience, during which time I think it will be very natural for people to continue playing the first.

As I had originally planned this, people would tend to spend only a portion of their time in Home when it was first released, and then gravitate more towards it as it was developed further. If I do it as a separate mod, I suspect much the same thing will happen, where BTW 2 would start off with a small fan base that would increase with time as it became more full featured.

It's not like I can release everything I have planned for it in one big batch or I'd likely be MIA for the next year :)

[Thyrllann]

While I have grown rather attached to my main world in the year or so I've been playing BTW, I have to say: FlowerChild, go for it. I've grown to trust the design decisions you've made, and they have greatly increased the enjoyment I gain from playing Minecraft. I don't mind what it is that you end up deciding to do, and you will have my support regardless.

As has been stated in previous posts, I can always keep separate instances of Minecraft for BTW and BTW:RTH.

Keep up the good work man :) Your mod is amazing, and I would be really guttered if having to deal with Mojang's crap drove you off the scene.

[Detritus]

Guys, as always, I would prefer you not to critique unreleased features, as that can be extremely discouraging to me, and given the nature of this discussion, speculation about what Home consists of is not really appropriate.

Okay, sorry. It's an interesting topic, but I understand that it's not appropriate.

[xou816]

Guys, as always, I would prefer you not to critique unreleased features, as that can be extremely discouraging to me, and given the nature of this discussion, speculation about what Home consists of is not really appropriate.

Yup, sorry as well FC. I may have gone a bit overboard. Sorry 'bout that!

(EDIT: corrected an awful English mistake *shame*)

[FlowerChild]

Well, feel free to start up a new thread if you guys want to discuss the possibilities or where you think this is heading. I've got no issues with that, and it's certainly the kind of thing that's happened in the past.

[ProjectMayhem]

I know it's off-topic, but I couldn't see throwing this in a new thread being productive. At work, I have to do a lot of Java programming and we tend to need pre-processing too. What we do is just writing our regular C++ pre-processing in Java and passing the Java code through the pre-process stage of GCC.

I'm not looking to discuss this (it's easy to figure out), but I saw your earlier comment and thought that you might be interested to hear this option exists. If it's just one inch helpful for your current conundrum (I don't see it being that helpful), then it's worth posting I guess.

Sorry for the intrusion.

As for the current discussion, I'm a player still in his alpha world, I play with HC buckets on and I vote for the "true sequel" option too, so whatever you decide seems to be already in line with my thoughts, no need for me to further pollute your thread.

[Samorost]

I do not have time to read all the pages but I still have something to say

FlowerChild I love BTW mod and I love it a lot more than Minecraft itself, actually it's the only
reason why I still play minecraft.

A long ago, I realized one thing when you stop with new versions of BTW I will not have a reason to play other versions of Minecraft and I stay on that version BTW. Minecraft is the backdrop for the BTW and not the opposite.

What I'm trying to say is the solution is very simple Let's stay on this version of Minecraft 1.4.5 or lower, and you will not have to deal with the modifications of Minecraft and you'll be able to focus on the BTW mod.

[Educated_Fool]

Well, whatever option you pick, I will be supporting you FC. So far you have not dissapointed me once (and I have been playing this mod since beta 1.6), so I will trust you on this one.
My personal favorite would have been a way in which the overworld would remain accessible (in the same save), but the only reason for that would have been the "easy" ingame switching between Home and the overworld. From what I have seen in this thread, this reason is far from worth the amount of effort that would take.

Creating a BTW 2 for the Home-dimension (and beyond?) seems to be your favorite at the moment and it is definitely one I like. I have to admit, my first reaction when you mentioned that we might have to leave our old world behind was: "But I want to keep my world ;_;". But having thought about it some more, I do think this is for the better. If we really are going to spent most of our time in Home and can't take anything from the overworld with us, we might as well stay there. The fact that we can always go back to "BTW 1" for some nostalgia solves my only issue with it (losing my old world etc.).

And besides all that, I'm love challenges, so I would mainly be playing in Home anyway =)


Btw: I had hoped that some information surrounding Mojang's "infinite-extended-blockID-dream" would be given at Minecon, but it seems that was not the case?

[nukularpower]

On topic: Just to be clear and to make sure I don't come off wrong, despite my low post count here, I am a pretty longtime BTW player. In fact, I played the very first version of the mod that was ever released (or I installed it, at any rate.. there wasn't much to play at the time :) ). So, to cut it short, despite how I feel about certain matters, I enjoy the mod as it exists for the unique gameplay experience and backstory it provides and the way it makes sense out of seemingly random elements of MC, and have a lot of respect for the design vision behind it.

So all that out of the way, I like the sound of BTW 2 a lot, assuming that's how this shakes out. The only concern I have about it is that many people new to the mod will likely just skip BTW 1 - and miss alot of the story that has evolved over time within it, which would really be a shame. Most new installers will likely assume it's the same deal as a mod like Thaumcraft going to Thaumcraft 2 - no one played the original anymore after 2 came out. I'm sure I'm safe in presuming that previous experience with BTW will be relevant in Home - I just hope the essense of the backstory isn't lost in the transition, as, at least for me, it's the biggest draw to BTW. Whatever way you go about handling that, I look forward to seeing what you come out with when you don't feel so constrained.

Off topic: As I said, I don't post here often, but I have lurked around for many moons, as I like reading the perspectives posted here. It's been on my mind to dive in and make a thread to request some sort of tour of your world, though I couldn't guess how to go about it. I've always been curious to get a good look at it, given how long you've stuck with the same map - a world with that much time put into it has to have some things worth seeing. So the video was really cool. The drivethrough alone made it awesome to me, and it drives home how much you are leaving behind by moving on.

[SufficientAnonymity]

FC, go with what you feel best. You've shown, time and time again, to have pretty damn solid judgement (which is especially impressive to me now I've seen more the frustrations you've had to deal with - I thought the ongoing API debacle was bad enough, but to have a preliminary version of Home working must have been properly painful) on aspects of the mod, and I'm confidant you'll make whatever you do work well.

Okay, now for a confession - my preference would have been some actual, physical link between the two worlds, but the ways discussed to do that just aren't fair on you. However, continuing support for "Overworld" BTW and giving it a proper conclusion, so that when I boot up "Home" BTW for the first time, it seems as if my actions in my previous world have lead me there (my apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick about what you're planning), is totally satisfactory (actually, it's more than that - it's brilliant). The way you've dropped hints at the lore has made me want to role-play around it; for there to be a chance for me to do that, and for your incredibly creative mind to be properly untethered for Mojang's frankly confused approach to the development of the game as of late, greatly excites me.

[Svartwolf]

when reading the first pages i was thinking "maybe FC could finish BTW tying all the loose ends and stop developing it outside version updates, and then start with a total conversion"

so when i read your sequel proposal I can't but express thats i believe that is the best option. while there are always negative consequences ( all options had negatives) i believe that you really need to move away from this stagnated "swamp maze" which has become the so called "future of minecraft". It's not like your fanbase can't wait for another 6 months for the mojang ID fix (i dont think they will do anything sooner) but what is in game here is not your fanbase patience, but your sanity and frustrations.

thats why i believe that a TC would be the only solution that may truly satisfy you.

my personal issues with the matter (if you are interested in knowing them, the rest of the post will be personal opinion) was having to rule out the possibility of convicing the staff of the server i liked to play to install BTW. i was waiting the mod api so BTW would be compatible with bukkit like server plugins. but i seriously doubt that this is an option any longer. i never proposed seriously BTW to ou server mostly because one of the things we more enjoy there is building big and fancy structures , which certainly doesn't go with anarchy design. And the server is too big and have too much people for trying a whitelist no plugin approach.

The thing is that I cannot longer enjoy Vanilla minecraft, I haven't been the first one to say it, and i will not be the last, but BTW for me IS Minecraft. still if you finish BTW and still keep updating it for being in the most recent version the possibility of having a truce between Vanilla and BTW is not completly moot. even if you dont develop another single feature for BTW1, the mod is still solid enough for lasting long years to come.

Its obviously always frightening though thinking as a player in a total conversion, because I feel like a crow and i want to have the bigest amount of shining things i can. Does useless stuff I have to admit i enjoyed like bats, cobble fences or potatoes is going to get into the TC? I can't really be sure.

BUT one thing I know, and it is that I really have started to thrust you FC to the point that i almost blindly feel like all the aesthethic shining things i'm going to lose (if i loose anything) with the TC, i'm going to have even better brighter and more useful shining things. I do trust your design decisions and i know that i will end enjoying the TC more than BTW 1. so i say, go for it, free your wings : D!

[Elensaar]

I just want to second (or third, or n-th) the sentiment that you've shown, time and again, that you know what you're doing, FC. So whatever solution you go for, I'll be there. (As Morm said it: Bring it on!) While I would have enjoyed to be able to continue through to Home in my current world, I understand that it might not be the optimal solution. I trust you to make the right decision, as you have many times previously.

I really look forward to going Home, no matter if I'll do it in a sequel or in a continuation of my current world. As has been said many times before: BTW has become MC for me, I can't play without it anymore.

[Ozziie]

I'm so late to this but I remember reading this a while ago (shows how long I've been lurking I suppose):

No. It's an entirely new system that delves into parts of the Minecraft code-base I've never touched before.

Your decorative bricks get the big triage :)

Stormweaver replied with:

Only remaining major thing I can think of (as someone who hasn't looked at the code himself) is terrain generation...

But you killed it all with:

I'm such a nice guy (and so love tormenting you), that I will say that not a single guess so far has been correct.

EDIT: I just re-read that whole thread. Lightning Rods, Screw Pumps, playing around with the sleep code.. we know more than you think!

Way to throw a curve ball!

It's brilliant to see how ideas have developed behind the scenes. It's clear from this thread that you have our full support with whatever design choice you decide to pursue and I'm glad you gave us this insight to allow discussion and express our concerns.

[Biohazard91X]

I know I'm a bit late to the party, but I'm gonna have to throw my vote in for #2. I know it's a lot more effort, but surely being able to move between your current world and Home is worth it?

[chaoticneutral]

Well, I've read the whole thread and I was dropping by just as support because, seriously, dealing with Moejang Qualyti Davlopment must be as tiring and frustrating as trying to dig a rock with a spoon. Then, I got an idea.

The main con against your own game would be the dev time needed to make the engine from the scratch, right? Then, what about starting with BTW:RTH and gradually replacing vanilla code with your own, until you can launch RTH without Minecraft? Would this be feasible/desirable/bang-for-buck-friendly?

That way, you can do the boring stuff when you feel like, still work in the gameplay for the whole process, and the mod is playable from the start. I think even the boring stuff would be less boring, since you would effectively rewarding yourself with more freedom.

But hey, whatever option you choose, I'm quite sure it'll be the best thing to do. You're the game designer here (and you know you're a competent one). And... thank you.