BTW: The life of Minecraft.

[FlowerChild]

It makes little to no sense to close the doors on your star product. Minecraft is still selling strong last I checked and the market is ripe to cash in on something like an expansion or even DLC. Pulling the plug on minecraft itself would be the pinnacle of idiocy from a business perspective. Although I don't believe Notch is a businessman at heart at all it seems like he would realize that cashing in on minecraft can give him the resources to keep doing whatever he wants to do however he wants to do it for as long as he likes.

Other options may not have occurred to him. He may see it as either he does it himself, or he watches MC go into a slow decline.

Options out of left field like hiring me or what have you may not even be on his radar, or he may view it as a political nightmare given my reputation in the community. With regards to hiring other people or what have you, I know I haven't seen anyone else in the community that would be up to the task.

[tom_savage]

It makes little to no sense to close the doors on your star product. Minecraft is still selling strong last I checked and the market is ripe to cash in on something like an expansion or even DLC. Pulling the plug on minecraft itself would be the pinnacle of idiocy from a business perspective. Although I don't believe Notch is a businessman at heart at all it seems like he would realize that cashing in on minecraft can give him the resources to keep doing whatever he wants to do however he wants to do it for as long as he likes.

Actually, I didn't say he was closing the doors, just that he was finalizing it, and going to quit with pointless updates and additions. Having looked over the snooping data sent back from peoples clients, he probably realized that most people were modding the game anyway. By finalizing it, and setting up the game to create and use mods with ease--he's actually setting himself up to make another boost in sales if anything.

[Sarudak]

I would be shocked if anywhere near 'most' people were modding minecraft. I would be surprised if more than 5% of people who purchased minecraft ever tried modding.

[tom_savage]

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/11/11/the-f ... minecraft/

Jebs and Dinnerbone talking about how they're finalizing the game.

[johnt]

It makes little to no sense to close the doors on your star product. Minecraft is still selling strong last I checked and the market is ripe to cash in on something like an expansion or even DLC. Pulling the plug on minecraft itself would be the pinnacle of idiocy from a business perspective. Although I don't believe Notch is a businessman at heart at all it seems like he would realize that cashing in on minecraft can give him the resources to keep doing whatever he wants to do however he wants to do it for as long as he likes.

Other options may not have occurred to him. He may see it as either he does it himself, or he watches MC go into a slow decline.

Options out of left field like hiring me or what have you may not even be on his radar, or he may view it as a political nightmare given my reputation in the community. With regards to hiring other people or what have you, I know I haven't seen anyone else in the community that would be up to the task.

And also, you have your own unique vision which not everyone likes. Which would be the same for pretty much any modder they would hire. I'd love to see them hire you to produce an official BTW Minecraft DLC, though.

Hell, with the amount of money they're pulling in from minecraft, they should be able to afford to hire every major modder and give them their own teams to work on DLC.

[FlowerChild]

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/11/11/the-f ... minecraft/

Jebs and Dinnerbone talking about how they're finalizing the game.

Short version: "we're out of good ideas".

Which is just sad when you're talking about one of the most open ended games ever made.

Regardless, I'm very glad to hear that it sounds like they're throwing in the towel :)

[Sarudak]

I hope it's true. But it doesn't seem to track with what they've been doing lately. To me it means more flowerchild originals and less flowerchild reworks of lousy ideas which is always a good thing. ;)

[Ulfengaard]

I thought I would share that my sense of Minecraft is a complete frame and engine with a patchwork of hangy-down parts. In short, it feels as though there is Minecraft, and then there is the other stuff in Minecraft which doesn't really do much. It's the junk drawer of things that didn't really fit anywhere else or weren't polished enough to be integrated fully into the main game. Sandbox, I get. This, however, is incohesiveness.

Better than Wolves fixes a great deal of this lack of cohesiveness: more in every update, in fact. Unfinished features and those which had no purpose in the past have been finished/altered and integrated with the whole, creating a more 'complete'-feeling game experience. I'm frankly quite grateful that Mojang is letting go of this project soon. In my view, the weekly snapshots and overall updates have become FC's nightmare suggestion board: no escape, no bans, and he has to deal with it to even move forward with his own (in my opinion better and more mature) vision for the game. Freed from the constraints of Mojang's 'improvements', FC will receive a much deserved reprieve and the opportunity to focus on what he does best: make a good and cohesive game.

So, bravo Mojang for the best design decision you've made in a long time. Unshackling FC from your misguided update choices will make your game MUCH better.

[FlowerChild]

FC's nightmare suggestion board: no escape, no bans, and he has to deal with it to even move forward with his own

Actually, that sums up my feeling on it nicely.

Every 3 months or so now Mojang pops up with a bunch of half-baked features that I previously didn't feel I could do anything about. Now that I am willing to do something about it, I of course have to deal with the complaints about it :)

Will be nice to be done with that cycle. If they call it quits, it'll be the point at which I can say "ok, from here on out, I'm making this game into what I want it to be, and that's that."

[SterlingRed]

I'm actually not disappointed with mojang acknowledging they're out of ideas. That's clearly been obvious for at least a year. I see minecraft as a platform mods can use to develop a game based on. Its about time mojang starts thinking that too. The sooner they do, the stronger minecraft will be going forward in terms of community support.

[Ozziie]

I'm actually surprised Jeb's admission included the fact that he knew he was adding fluff that didn't extend the game "but people are very happy about it."

Perhaps there IS a game designer in there but while "people" are happy with new mobs or animals there is no need to introduce anything that would require too much thought and balance.

It's a welcome announcement and I can't wait for this to be official:

ok, from here on out, I'm making this game into what I want it to be, and that's that.

[chai]

Two wise people gave the world quotes I feel really sum up the difference between btw & vanilla (well, the vanilla of these benighted latter days).

Antoine de Saint Exupéry defined engineering perfection as being achieved "not when there is no longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away." In other words, you can add fluff all day long, but it won't make a design any better. Removing an extraneous feature from an otherwise elegant design, on the other hand, can only be a good thing. Though there are a few things in BTW that aren't absolutely vital, I can't think of anything that doesn't contribute, overall, to its aesthetic if nothing else. I can't say the same about (current) vmc, alas.

I don't know who said this or I'd cite my source, but a coder once noted that software should "suck less with every release." 'Nough said.

[Gunnerman21]

everything new I’m thinking of should probably be a mod... maybe I should work on something more useful - Jeb from the PCGamer article

And there's the rare smart thought of Jeb's to get himself back on track to making Minecraft as it was originally intended to be. (Hopefully...)

[finite8]

It could also mean that Dinner Bone and Jeb are sick of Minecraft, dealing with the community and approaching the "Spending more time fixing bugs and maintaining than doing fun stuff... CBF" stage of the game now. Perhaps 0x10c has the office in a buzz and they are all keen to dive into something new and meaty.

Coding new stuff is ALWAYS more fun than maintaining or enhancing existing stuff.

[FlowerChild]

It could also mean that Dinner Bone and Jeb are sick of Minecraft, dealing with the community and approaching the "Spending more time fixing bugs and maintaining than doing fun stuff... CBF" stage of the game now. Perhaps 0x10c has the office in a buzz and they are all keen to dive into something new and meaty.

Coding new stuff is ALWAYS more fun than maintaining or enhancing existing stuff.

Dinnerbone just started man.

[finite8]

Dinnerbone just started man.

Doesn't mean he isn't sick of it. I mean... it doesn't look like he has put a whole lot of effort into making his contributions complete and reliable.

[Adjudicator79]

There's just not enough people that play SMP to make a difference relative to the overall number that play the mod.

This kind of floored me. Over the past month or two, I feel like many of the changes that BTW have been implementing have been specifically designed for SMP and anarchy play. Given that FC has made no bones about his preference for Anarchy playstyle, that seemed like a natural progression. But if I'm reading this right, that FC doesn't see the largest part of the BTW community as SMPers, then I am at a loss for some of the recent changes. Yes, I realize this is in relation to the donation issue FC raised, but it obviously represents an understanding of the primary audience of the mod. And yes, I realize that FC just said a few posts earlier that he never designs for the community. But there does seem like there should be some connection between drastic changes in the mod design and the relative number of users who will benefit from those changes.

I missed the map discussion and I probably wouldn't have chimed in on it because, again, I saw it as a SMP focused issue. Maps are obviously death on the run, hide, build model that Anarchy play requires and it makes sense to completely remove them if the goal of the game is SMP-driven. I just took for granted that those of us playing primarily SSP were going to have what little remaining exploration support there was in BTW removed.

But if there's a realization that SSPers are still out there, and still a big part of the community, then it seems like we've hit a design bifurcation in BTW, where some of the adjustments to the core gameplay mechanic of vMC make sense only in the SMP context. A long time ago, FC said that he'd never let reality get in the way of good game design. The "it's unrealistic to have a map that tracks your location and reveals player-made areas as easily as maps in vMC do" seems to be an argument specifically supporting good game design only from the SMP side. In SSP, what the hell does anyone care if I can map the surface of my world? In fact, why is it that I can create a single structure that generates mobs, kills them, sorts their drops, processes them into multiple different end-stage supplies, and stores them, but I might not be able to use a bloody squid's ink and paper to write a map?

I have no doubt that FC has a vision for the mod and that the many recent Hardcore modes which feel like substantive nerfs are leading somewhere. And, like others have said, I don't play vMC anymore. If I ever were to decide that BTW simply didn't work for me, design-wise, I wouldn't switch to a different mod, or back to vMC, I'd put the game away and spend my time on something else. I've said this before, and I know others have expressed this too, I play vMC for the exploration and building elements, not for any sense of story continuity or running around ganking fellow players. BTW has always been the king of building additions and the cohesiveness of the system has long resulted in my strong support of FC.

But the last several iterations of BTW have substantively removed the ability to engage in exploration that doesn't require dropping torches every ten blocks to track your progress. When hardcore info went into effect, I balked, but eventually came around. I hate vMC maps, but I've been forced to use them if I want to engage in any kind of exploration that I enjoy (non uni-directional, random tangent, pretty vista-driven exploration). If maps are pulled too, and it would seem that the only reason to yank them is SMP-driven, and there's no means to encourage non-breadcrumb exploration for SSP play, then I've lost one of the two reasons I love BTW.

I realize that this isn't how many people see vMC and BTW. But we SSPers who like to actually leave our bases and explore the world are still playing BTW. I guess I'm hoping that we aren't either forgotten or being cast aside as the redesign of vMC happens via BTW.

[Sarudak]

I think you're confusing the idea of the intended audience of the mod with the primary audience of the mod. Yes most people don't play SMP. And of those that do an even smaller percentage play anarchy. That however is not the point as SMP and anarchy in particular are the style of play that FC enjoys and FC is making the mod the way he likes to play it.

[muggsbud]

FC is the main audience of the mod... Take that how you will, but that's who he designs for.

[Sarudak]

It's true. He's primarily designing the game he wants to play. But he does definitely respond to the desires and feelings of many of the people on this forum...

[FlowerChild]

But the last several iterations of BTW have substantively removed the ability to engage in exploration that doesn't require dropping torches every ten blocks to track your progress. When hardcore info went into effect, I balked, but eventually came around. I hate vMC maps, but I've been forced to use them if I want to engage in any kind of exploration that I enjoy (non uni-directional, random tangent, pretty vista-driven exploration). If maps are pulled too, and it would seem that the only reason to yank them is SMP-driven, and there's no means to encourage non-breadcrumb exploration for SSP play, then I've lost one of the two reasons I love BTW.

No man. You're misunderstanding this at a fundamental level. I don't like maps in SSP either.

And I don't view this as "removing exploration". I view it as returning some challenge and danger to exploration in terms of what it used to feel like back in the day.

Obviously each of the changes I make continues to have SSP in mind. You may not understand or agree with them in that context, but they are definitely made for the sake of the single player game experience as well. Heck, I'm still primarily a SSP player myself.

Obviously, some changes I make are SMP specific, but they generally don't impact SSP at all, like me removing the icons for other player locations from the maps.

Also, glad you didn't chime in on the map thread, as you seem to have entirely misunderstood it and didn't bother to read it through to the end. The changes I've made to maps already are the full extent of what I plan to do to them. That's it, so again: you're freaking out over nothing.

The question I was largely raising in this thread was "ok, in order for me to be comfortable with maps, I need to make a bunch of changes that will be a pain in the ass to implement and then maintain in the future, so should I just rip them out instead?". The answer I got back was that people really wanted them in the game, so I then put in the extra work to implement the changes to bring them up to a level where they're no longer an issue for me. Not only was I nice enough to open it up the community feedback, I went the extra mile to put in about a days worth of work to accommodate other people's feelings on it, and will have to continue to put in work in the future to maintain that code strictly for their benefit. Yet, for some reason people are still freaking out about that thread and attacking me based on it. It's REALLY fucking annoying.

Also, your "all I need is some paper and ink" argument is total bullshit. That in no way justifies the inclusion of a pinpoint accuracy GPS system in the mix, which is what my issue with maps has always revolved around.

Poor post overall man. Alarmist and inaccurate at pretty much every level. I also really don't appreciate the implication that the game design is being affected by donations, as I've stated on numerous occasions that I don't allow that to happen.

FC is the main audience of the mod... Take that how you will, but that's who he designs for.

Not *entirely* true. I obviously do make some concessions for the people I consider to be the "primary audience" of the mod. Heck, if the mod were just for me, I wouldn't have even bothered changing maps as I don't even use them myself.

However, that "primary audience" in my mind is basically compromised of people that have very similar views on how the game should be played as myself. We may differ on subtle points here and there, but it's certainly not the people that freak on these kinds of changes.

[Sarudak]

I don't see why breadcrumb exploration is bad in the first place. You're acting like you lost the ability to explore like you'll be hopelessly lost for all eternity without f3/maps. The truth is as long as you have a compass and enough food you can always find your way back. And what's so hard or bad about leaving a trail of torches anyway? It's not hard, nor expensive.

[FlowerChild]

I don't see why breadcrumb exploration is bad in the first place. You're acting like you lost the ability to explore like you'll be hopelessly lost for all eternity without f3/maps. The truth is as long as you have a compass and enough food you can always find your way back. And what's so hard or bad about leaving a trail of torches anyway? It's not hard, nor expensive.

And as I've pointed out in the past: it plays to MC's strengths.

Your ability to modify your environment as you see fit is the main thing that makes MC unique. Placing waypoint markers and knowing they will be there when you get back is a form of real-world navigation that is rather rare to find in games.

Again...this encourages building. Place a cobble pillar on a hill to find your way. If you start using the route enough, you may be motivated to convert that to a tower and secondary base with a few essentials to get through the night. Spend enough nights there and you may begin to expand this with walls and a mine. Eventually, you may wind up building a minecart rail along the route and create a station at that base.

These kinds of player motivations and long term impacts are very subtle, but also a very real part of the overall gameplay experience.

I know this is a counter-intuitive concept for many people, but: too much convenience acts counter to actual gameplay.

[Sarudak]

New vMC thread subtitle. "Inconvenient For Your Gaming Pleasure" :D

[FlowerChild]

New vMC thread subtitle. "Inconvenient For Your Gaming Pleasure" :D

Lol! Nice. Although I won't be changing the current one for a little while given its aggravation factor ;)