Flower's Dev Diary (Week of November 12th)

[FlowerChild]

Another week, another round of feature development :)

As always, rules for this thread:

-DO NOT post suggestions.
-DO NOT critique unreleased features. Wait until you've had a chance to try them before passing judgement.

With that out of the way:

I'm a day early on the dev diary this week (I normally post them Mondays), but it's been a couple of weeks since I did one, and I seem to be at an appropriate point to talk about what I'm doing, so I figured no time like the present :)

Allow me to open with my usual screenshot from my world, which this week relates directly to what I've decided to work on next:

Spoiler

Show

Yes, that's right, determined as always to do things legit, I finally killed me a wither and built me a beacon :)

I'll start off with two points about this right off the bat:

-I was pleasantly surprised by the wither, and had some fun defeating him. Did so without a single death and without consulting the wiki on him beforehand either. I suspect though that it will suffer the same fate as most boss mobs in almost any game in that they're cool for a little while the first time you encounter them, but then they're basically "done" as game content and rapidly lose their interest. Ultimately, this makes them a development time sync where the same effort is better spent elsewhere.

-Beacons suck ass.

Seriously...on the 2nd one, I don't think I've seen such a decent idea so brutally sodomized in vanilla before. They're right up there with the enderdragon in terms of lost potential. By contrast to the wither, this is a block we could potentially get a lot of use out of and thus would have been a great thing to spend development time on.

Specific observations on them:

-They're frigging useless. I guess that about sums it up :)

-They're seriously underpowered to the point where I have no idea why I'd build one. This contrasts sharply with them being a cool large structure that takes a fair amount of work to create, and seriously, after going through all the trouble of building one, the actual usage of them is a huge let down. And yes, this is one of those rare instances where I'm complaining about something of Mojang's being underpowered instead of over. Go figure :)

-I have no idea why powers aren't material dependent. Currently, there's no reason you'd ever want to build one of these out of diamond. It's pretty much guaranteed that everyone is just going to use iron for them, and no other material unless it's strictly for aesthetics.

-The GUI is a frigging mess. What you're supposed to do with it is in no way obvious, and the material sacrifice to power it again makes no sense because why you'd use anything other than iron is beyond me. Honestly, I don't even think this thing needs a GUI to begin with.

So, my next task given that these things are potentially really cool, and potentially a really nice reward for completing a rather difficult in-game task (everything from collecting the wither skulls, to killing the wither, to collecting the materials to build the pyramid), is to rebalance these things to make them actually useful to have around, more rewarding to build as a result, and to refine the way they work so that different materials actually matter and probably to get rid of the GUI entirely.

Again, I think they're a potentially very cool idea (probably the coolest in 1.4) that was just terribly implemented, so I'm quite keen of fixing them up with my usual minimal amount of effort and turning them into something interesting.

Beyond that, this week I also plan on tackling specific reactions for each animal in the nether and the end dimension, and will likely be thrust back into version updating later in the week when 1.4.4 is officially released.

And don't worry...I still plan on the explosive themed update for Novemeber 5th/10th/???, I just really want to put all the remaining 1.4 related issues to rest before moving onto that. It's still definitely coming though :)

[Panda]

Agreed, 50 blocks of diamonds for a 10x10 powerup area? lame

I so hope you work your magic on this cause its such a visually pleasing block. :D

[Kazuya Mishima]

Isn't also an issue that beacons deliver redundant abilities that are and could have been handled by the potion system.

Many of the abilities like speed or regeneration or strength are already available in the potion system and so beacons devalue that system and are essentially really not offering anything new.

[Extreme Boyheat]

It's a Monday where I am so you're on the money with your weekly dev diary. :)

Beacons are definitely underwhelming, not even worth the effort of building up so many iron blocks.

[PatriotBob]

Hmm. I'm glad to see you fixing the Beacon. It showed such great potential conceptually then to see them completely fail to do anything interesting with it...

FlowerChild, what's your take on the Beacon for anarchy play? It has to have a clear path to the sky and has this terrible habit of making a big "HERE I AM COME KILL ME AND TAKE MY STUFF" marker. I'm really interested to see where you go with that.

[jorgebonafe]

I assume that the lava pyramids were made before HCB and are not actually a hint for anything, right?

[FlowerChild]

Isn't also an issue that beacons deliver redundant abilities that are and could have been handled by the potion system.

Many of the abilities like speed or regeneration or strength are already available in the potion system and so beacons devalue that system and are essentially really not offering anything new.

IMO, not really. They're largely a non-portable equivalent of the same thing, thus if you're off exploring, or generally outside of your base, potions are the way to go. Ideally though, what I'd like to see happen, is that for within your own base, they'll act as a permanent form of these effects so you don't have to phutz with potions while you're working within your base if you're willing to go through the trouble of creating a beacon.

Obviously, potions are WAY cheaper and easier to produce as well. Beacons require a significant time and resource investment to create.

Also, for anarchy or PvP, potions remain the only viable alternative for obvious reasons.

[FlowerChild]

FlowerChild, what's your take on the Beacon for anarchy play? It has to have a clear path to the sky and has this terrible habit of making a big "HERE I AM COME KILL ME AND TAKE MY STUFF" marker. I'm really interested to see where you go with that.

I believe they'll be entirely useless in anarchy, and IMO, that's the way it should be. There *might* be the potential for people to temporarily use them in a location where they are ready for invaders (maybe in the end dimension for example), but since they provide bonuses to all players (enemies included) I don't see them being effective or really worth the risk.

I assume that the lava pyramids were made before HCB and are not actually a hint for anything, right?

Yeah, this is my main world, and I still play it with HCB off in my main base (I have HCB specific areas elsewhere) because it's just WAY too built around vanilla water mechanics.

But yes, those lava pyramids are exceedingly old. If you remember the old trailer video for the mod ("Who let the dogs out?") the one on the right is where I beat the wolf to death with a shovel. It still has the "Thunderdome" sign over its entrance :)

You can also see Dingle Berry's grave off to the right of the beacon.

[PatriotBob]

I believe they'll be entirely useless in anarchy, and IMO, that's the way it should be. There *might* be the potential for people to temporarily use them in a location where they are ready for invaders (maybe in the end dimension for example), but since they provide bonuses to all players (enemies included) I don't see them being effective or really worth the risk.

I figured as much. I was wondering if you had some plan in your make-no-so-terrible rework to incorporate them in to the anarchy play. I'm sure there will be some creative folk who find some use for them in anarchy.

[Detritus]

-I was pleasantly surprised by the wither, and had some fun defeating him. Did so without a single death and without consulting the wiki on him beforehand either.

I think when looking at a boss mob/any new mob that is supposed to be difficult, we need to examine it from within the vanilla spectrum. Defeating the wither without any deaths in BTW, is, if I can say so as someone who hasn't even fought Mr. Dragon yet, not really an enormous achievement. I assume you have full plate armour, and all the SFS tools and such, so they don't pose much of a threat. Whereas, in vanilla, the top of the tech tree is level 30 enchanted diamond tools/weapons/armour/ which are nowhere near as powerful as the sfs equivalents.
Defeating it with no deaths would probably be seen as an achievement with just vanilla items, but with top-tier BTW stuff...
Not so much.

Anyway, looking forward to the rest of the new content you implement, and seeing the beacon as a worthwhile block. (Currently it's just wasting your valuable blockID's :P)
[/endrant]

[FlowerChild]

I think when looking at a boss mob/any new mob that is supposed to be difficult, we need to examine it from within the vanilla spectrum. Defeating the wither without any deaths in BTW, is, if I can say so as someone who hasn't even fought Mr. Dragon yet, not really an enormous achievement. I assume you have full plate armour, and all the SFS tools and such, so they don't pose much of a threat. Whereas, in vanilla, the top of the tech tree is level 30 enchanted diamond tools/weapons/armour/ which are nowhere near as powerful as the sfs equivalents.
Defeating it with no deaths would probably be seen as an achievement with just vanilla items, but with top-tier BTW stuff...
Not so much.

Anyway, looking forward to the rest of the new content you implement, and seeing the beacon as a worthwhile block. (Currently it's just wasting your valuable blockID's :P)
[/endrant]

Actually, when I first summoned him, yes, I had SFS armor and equip, but absolutely no enchants on it because I wanted to get a feel for how powerful he was. He kicked my ass repeatedly (I always managed to get away with just enough health to survive though), and I had to run for it to stock up on better equipment.

Given that SFS without enchants is way weaker than diamond with, you can take your rant and shove it.

[Detritus]

Okay, sorry.

[danielngtiger]

Yeah, this is my main world, and I still play it with HCB off in my main base (I have HCB specific areas elsewhere) because it's just WAY too built around vanilla water mechanics.

But yes, those lava pyramids are exceedingly old. If you remember the old trailer video for the mod ("Who let the dogs out?") the one on the right is where I beat the wolf to death with a shovel. It still has the "Thunderdome" sign over its entrance :)

You can also see Dingle Berry's grave off to the right of the beacon.

Oh man, the nostalgia! I remember the first time I saw that video, you walked into the lava dome, turned on the light blocks, and beat the wolf with a shovel. Dingle Berry got buryed in cement, which I remember going "Wow, that has so many applications," when I saw it. Nothing like that had really been done before. Time really flies. I feel old now. I know I haven't contributed particularly much, and tend to just lurk in the shadows here, but thanks for the ride man, you've done a great thing here.

[FlowerChild]

Okay, sorry.

And btw man, I wasn't critiquing the difficulty of the wither with anything I said above. I actually said I quite enjoyed it. I mentioned getting it without deaths more as a "go me!" than a criticism of it.

As I said above, I actually like the wither. However, I don't think it was an effective use of development time due to how short-lived boss mobs are in terms of fun.

You can put a new type of stone block in the game with about a half hour work and players will be amused with it for a long long time as it becomes a persistent aspect of gameplay. Something like the wither might take 40 hours of work (or more) to implement, and you get tops maybe 30 minutes of gameplay out of it that really doesn't impact you in hardly any way the rest of the time you are playing.

The bang for the buck on boss mobs is just notoriously low, generally involving a shit-load of special-case work for very little benefit, and that's a very common sentiment amongst professional game developers.

[Psion]

OH MY GODS, I FORGOT ABOUT CEMENT.

Thanks for reminding me, I totally was frustrated over a lack of lava for a smoothstone generator in my base and you reminded me I have a trickier but useful alternative to that! XD

Also, I'm really stoked over how you plan on changing beacons, FC. They were the block I was looking forward most to in 1.4, and although it's nice to have a haste II enchant to help me dig out my basements, it's still not terribly much, and considering the size of the dome i'm digging underground, it doesn't even cover a fourth of the area I'm clearing out at max power. So I'm either going to have to make 4 max powered beacons to get full coverage (which means like 600 blocks more of iron... ulgh.), or deal without. >_< Can't wait to see what you have planned!

[Kazuya Mishima]

Did you use any unconventional methods to deal with the wither . From some of the videos i've seen it seems players just build an arena or find a nice flat surface like a desert and hammer them with arrows till they go into melee mode drinking a few potions here and there?

Is using cover or terrain reasonable strategy of automating a means to destroy them or at least lower their health significantly like with a blast chamber where you drop bombs on them or even dead weights?

[FlowerChild]

Oh, one small critique I will make of the design of the Wither however:

I really liked the way Terraria did its bosses because each of them basically encouraged the building of certain kinds of structures, or "arenas" in which to defeat them. These gave you incentive to build structures in-game *with a purpose*.

The design of MC's bosses on the other hand seem to want to avoid the fact that they're *in a game largely about building*. Both bosses destroy blocks in such a way that basically makes constructing an area in which to fight them next to impossible. I see there are a few suggestions on the wiki for structures you can build, but as far as I can tell, the design of the Wither was intended to specifically discourage the building of structures to help defeat it.

So, they basically take the construction aspect out of the game temporarily, which is rather lame in a game that features that aspect as one of its primary strengths.

Anyways, I would have much preferred if building was incorporated into the boss design, rather than trying to eliminate its effectiveness.

[Mr_Hosed]

Just Mojang's continued attempt to force people to play Minecraft like a shitty RPG and not like the crazy cool sandbox building game it is.

Very much looking forward to what you do with the Beacon. It's the first concept Mojang has introduced that seemed to understand the kind of game they built, but then they humped it all over... :(

[StarsintheSky]

I'll echo that sentiment. One of my favorite parts of Terraria was building up well-refined/streamlined boss arenas.

Am I correct in thinking that the beacon pyramid is the first time Mojang has ever added a mandatory structure to the game?

I look forward to seeing how you tweak the beacon to better reflect what it represents.

[FlowerChild]

Am I correct in thinking that the beacon pyramid is the first time Mojang has ever added a mandatory structure to the game?

I'm not sure what you mean by "mandatory" in this context, but the bookshelves with the enchanter were very similar, and was another move on their part I was quite fond of...

Except for the fact that they made it too few shelves to begin with, then reduced the number even further :)

[Six]

Both bosses destroy blocks in such a way that basically makes constructing an area in which to fight them next to impossible. I see there are a few suggestions on the wiki for structures you can build, but as far as I can tell, the design of the Wither was intended to specifically discourage the building of structures to help defeat it.

For the wither that actually came about a bit in reverse. When initially added in the snapshot it had no explody powers and players quickly worked out how to build a boxed in pen making the fight completely arbitrary. As was the immunity to arrows at half health I believe.

-Beacons suck ass.

The 'iterative development' of this one kind of blew my mind. It was initially added, with the mention that it was a work in progress and still had work to be done on it. And over the course of the next few snapshots they did indeed work on it, changing the look of the block and the look of the beam it gives off. The actual workings of the block are pretty much exactly the same as when it was first added and they never went back to tweak the mechanics at all.

[redrew89]

-Beacons suck ass.

Good God, yes they do...

I spoiled myself after the 1.4 update, and read everything I could find on the Other Wiki regarding the Wither, Beacons, and such. By the time I had fought him, built the pyramid, and set up the beacon, I was completely fed up by how much work and effort I had invested into something that was a total let-down. I had to have used about 2 or 3 stacks of mining charges to create a rather large diamond mine, and ended up giving up, when I realized that it didn't matter which material I used. As of now, there is a section of my pyramid where I "cheated" and used iron, instead.

The radius is rather pathetic. 40 meters from the beacon in all axes (with this largest pyramid) doesn't really make much coverage, especially in more sprawled out bases, like my own. I would have to fight the Wither at least twice more, and then spend another 30+ hours mining, to build enough beacons to properly cover my base.

So, my next task given that these things are potentially really cool, and potentially a really nice reward for completing a rather difficult in-game task (everything from collecting the wither skulls, to killing the wither, to collecting the materials to build the pyramid), is to rebalance these things to make them actually useful to have around, more rewarding to build as a result, and to refine the way they work so that different materials actually matter and probably to get rid of the GUI entirely.

[Cue Mr. Burns voice] Veeeeery interesting. I'm looking forward to what all of this entails. Perhaps I should get back down into the mines. :P

[Six]

I really liked the way Terraria did its bosses because each of them basically encouraged the building of certain kinds of structures, or "arenas" in which to defeat them. These gave you incentive to build structures in-game *with a purpose*.

The key difference in Terraria is that all of the main bosses freely move through the solid terrain, so you can't build any kind of 'cage' to put them in. The building is entirely to aid the player and block projectiles, not to restrict / restrain the bosses (Although for the worm bosses you could kind of restrict them as they could only 'leap' so far out of solid ground, letting you build a platform just out of their 'reach').

But yeah, I really really loved constructing arenas to fight the bosses in Terraria, and with the same 'summoning' nature of the Wither, I wish they had focused the design more towards this.

[Arandia]

Bearing in mind that I have absolutely no experience with anarchy play, I can think of at least one use for Pyramids beacons: bait.

Build one, light it, and wait. When someone comes, drink an invisibility potion and follow them back to their base. Either pop out and kill them or wait for them to leave again, then trash their base and recover all the materials.

Maybe put a few explosives around to make it look like a 'legit' trap, too.

[Sarudak]

I'm glad to see that your analysis of beacons tracks with mine. A really cool idea with an implementation that was flawed in many ways. I'm looking forward to seeing what you're going to do with them and if it is anything like what I suspect.