Design Discussion: The Nuking of maps

[Stormweaver]

I like maps; when you're doing something extensive (like colonising an island) they can be *really* useful for getting a feel for the overall shape of the terrain, and let you see all your work in it's 2d glory when you're done. So I'll just keep my fingers crossed that removing the pointer is enough to nerf the GPS effect :)

[Eriottosan]

The problem with just removing the player indicators is that you just need to make a new map, and you are at the centre of the area being explored. It's a bit more work, but doing that with a filled out map in your inventory of the same area would make for having the indicator back again ...

That being said, I do really like maps.

[Six]

If simply removing the drawing of the pointer on the map is possible, I would really support that. I've always enjoyed maps in the game and get a certain pleasure from making one and filling out the area around my base.

[Folrig]

It sounds a little as though you like maps, but you think they need to go. And your hoping that maybe, just maybe, we will be able to talk you out of giving them the axe.

[FlowerChild]

It sounds a little as though you like maps, but you think they need to go. And your hoping that maybe, just maybe, we will be able to talk you out of giving them the axe.

No, I really don't like maps other than the decorative aspect, and certainly don't want to be talked out of anything.

Just wanted to get an impression for what the public reaction would be to this kind of change. Maybe I'm just trying to get an idea if the pain in the ass involved in fixing them would be greater than that of people bitching about it if I rip them out ;)

[the_fodder]

The problem with just removing the player indicators is that you just need to make a new map, and you are at the centre of the area being explored. It's a bit more work, but doing that with a filled out map in your inventory of the same area would make for having the indicator back again ...

That being said, I do really like maps.

As of the 1.4 update maps are now aligned to a grid, you are no longer in the center of the map.
http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Map_%28item%29

Jump to 6 minutes for an example of the new map, Notice player marker in lower left corner.

Spoiler

Show

[Folrig]

Maybe I'm just trying to get an idea if the pain in the ass involved in fixing them would be greater than that of people bitching about it if I rip them out ;)

That's interesting, because you don't seem to take whining into consideration very often. Makes me wander what all the hubbalu is about maps. I think the concept is great, however I have made only one.

[Gormador]

Well, I don't use maps but surely without the position marker one would still be able to gets its approximate position. Which isn't too bad in my opinion because the player would still need to identify his immediate surroundings in order to get an idea of his location.

However, when the map is created, one needs to go on the field to reveal it around him, right ? So during that first exploration, the player would be able to get his location pretty accurately with much less work needed.
I wouldn't see that as a problem as it could be justified by the fact that steve has to draw the map, and as long as a map data can't be erased (to prevent the "got home, destroyed map, made a blank one, got off again with my neat and fresh gps"). But injecting a precision factor to the map drawing in order to make it believable – last time I checked, steve wasn't a cartographer – wouldn't be worth you time IMO, FlowerChild. But you're the one to judge, of course ;-)


As you said else where, GPS functionality should be much higher in the Tech tree, when Steve will be able to launch his own satellites ! That is... if you ever want to go there – but I doubt this is the direction in which you're heading.


tl;dr : IMO the big problem is (edit : position marker aside) the accuracy at which maps are drawn. Steve has a better Google Earth than we do ! And it's wrong.

[LiveInPain]

I personally dont use maps and I they don't really interest me, so wathever you do is good for me.
Player drawing their own maps XD that would be fun, especially for those like me who can't even draw a stickman.
And keep up with the good work FC thanks for this awsome mod.

[CycloneSP]

To be quite honest, finding out cardinal directions isn't too terribly hard in game as it is. Just look at the sun, moon, or clouds and you can figure out all 4 cardinal directions within a minute. After that the 'need' for a gps is really nonexistant. I'm in consensus with the others that if possible and not too hard to code, would be to reduce the size of map reveal and remove the player icon. This would encourage both greater exploration(for all those perfectionists out there that like filled maps) and landmark recognition as you now need to identify where a land mark on you map lines up with the area around you.

Also, doesn't the nether already use a reduced mapping radius?

[KittenToaster]

Voted - Go nuclear, and good riddance to buggy maps ;)

[darahalian]

I would be sad to see maps go. They are really quite nice for getting a feel for the surrounding terrain. I honestly wouldn't mind the removal of the indicators, as they become especially annoying on maps in item frames, or reducing how far Steve can "see" when filling in a map. Reducing the speed at which the map is filled could also help, but I don't know if that would be easy enough to be worth it.

[Nekhs]

I'd like to throw my vote in for removing the player indicator but keeping the map itself and maybe shrinking the size. I don't use them that often but they're pretty to look at.

[PatriotBob]

I like maps. Not for the GPS-like aspect of revealing player position but to be able to chart out the world.
Minecraft is an infinite game. You can run in any direction for as long as you please. And it's a beautiful thing. I have an excellent sense of direction, far above the average player/person, but when I've wandered 7km from home in a very non-linear fashion getting back by memory can be... interesting. I used to use maps to map out the terrain as I went. (Imagine that...) However the fact the centered on creation location made that very annoying.
The grid alignment and the ability to scale maps make them great for their intended purpose of cartography, which I think MC needs because of it's scale. But FC is quite right in the the play locator displayed on the map is far to GPS-like and might as well be the F3 coordinates. And the dot around the edge isn't any better.
The remove of the indicator I hope will suffice because of all the things Mojang has added in quite some time, maps are kinda of nice. Both as a decorative block now that we can put them in frames and as a way to find home over large distances.
I wouldn't argue with FC's decision, but it's my two cents on maps.

Side Note: If maps were removed what would the method for traversing large distances would be? Periodic large landmarks? Kinda makes things hard on us who play on the shorter view distances as we'll be forced to mark far more frequently.

[CycloneSP]

another thing, I would have no problem whatsoever if you were to 'officially' include maps into the BTW tech tree and thereby making them more difficult to acquire. That way it would slightly more rewarding to obtain the features that maps presently give. But yeah, I'm not a game designer(at least not yet... but I do have dreams ya know) so probably don't have a clue as to what maps truly need to be 'balanced.'

[FlowerChild]

After testing it out: removing the player indicator sucks. As I suspected it would, it just makes maps feel broken rather than like they were intentionally designed that way.

So, I've gone back to what I was originally doing and "fixing" them at much effort. By the end of this, I will have likely wasted an entire day on it, about which I am none to happy.

[elustran]

Salient points:

* I think maps add a lot to the fun of Minecraft and would be sad to see them go.
* I won't be disappointed if you nerf them.
* Thanks for holding an open forum and taking the time to work on maps.

Details:

One of the most satisfying experiences for me in Minecraft is filling out maps. I find it fun in and of itself. Of course, exploring has changed a lot since the bed nerf, but the added challenge of having to deal with nighttime adds to the satisfaction of seeing a completed map. I wouldn't mind if maps got nerfed somehow or another, but I would be sad if the ability to make maps got removed completely. While I personally never found the 'GPS' ability of them to be OP in the way the old maps worked, I understand why it's worse with the new maps which provide a finer level of detail and take a little bit away from the BTW F3 nerf.

The main benefit of the player location icons on maps for me has mostly been to aid in filling them in, and the main use of maps for me is to explore for new base locations. I almost never carry a map unless I'm exploring, although perhaps that's because I already build visible structures and railroads anyway. That doesn't reduce the utility of a map in deciding what areas look nice to build my next base or the enjoyment of collecting filled-in maps.

[STrRedWolf]

Personal preference: I don't use maps, so I wouldn't miss them if they get nuked.

[PatriotBob]

After testing it out: removing the player indicator sucks. As I suspected it would, it just makes maps feel broken rather than like they were intentionally designed that way.

So, I've gone back to what I was originally doing and "fixing" them at much effort. By the end of this, I will have likely wasted an entire day on it, about which I am none to happy.

Very sorry to hear that it's been such an ordeal dealing with them. I would offer assistance but I doubt you'd be inclined to take it. :)

I'd encourage you to do what's best for BTW, but that just seems silly. When haven't you?

[FlowerChild]

Very sorry to hear that it's been such an ordeal dealing with them. I would offer assistance but I doubt you'd be inclined to take it. :)

I'd encourage you to do what's best for BTW, but that just seems silly. When haven't you?

Well, part of my original hesitation on this is that it basically came down to two choices:

a) Nuking them.

b) Digging deep into the related code in order to "fix" them and then having to go through the hassle of maintaining that.

Half-measures like removing the player indicator just wind up feeling like cheap hacks, not a finished feature, and I tend to approach these things as: "do it right or don't do it at all".

Anyways, I doubt that I'll ever be fully satisfied short of wiping them out completely given their potential for abuse (especially with all this cloning nonsense seeing the location of other players and such and having their copy update yours as well), but this will at least allow them to stop nagging at the back of my head.

[Aeslynn Winterfell]

I myself lean toward actually urging you to remove maps. This is kinda surprising (to me even) since for a long time I've often been resistant to loss of options in BTW.

I don't use maps as a player, preferring to memorize the lay of the land, and using landmarks and compass.

I've dabbled a bit in terms of coding (mostly scripting languages for other games) so from my view as a mod creator I think of it this way:

Key Point:
I know how hard it can be to keep motivated on a challenging project and how much doing something that's not enjoyable just eats at your motivation. Don't just force yourself to band-aid an issue or lock yourself into throwing a lot of energy into the trap of having to update something complicated just for what is in the end a decorative element.

[casinodoug]

the main feature i will miss is being able to put maps in frames as markers for other maps to give a over view of everything gives a really cool look. so will miss using them as a pseudo-kiosk.

[Wgurgh]

I use maps a lot, not just for the looks, but to help me remember where that swamp or desert I am looking for is. I get lost in my own house (well, my MC house, not TOO often in my real house) and have a terrible sense of direction. Still, I am for just ripping them out altogether honestly. They certainly are too powerful as is, and I would hate for you to waste time "fixing" them rather than working on the incredible things you add to the game.

Besides, much of the greatest fun I have had playing has been when I was totally lost. Of course, since I am lost most of the time I am playing...

Anyhow, yeah, i say go for it. I trust your instincts more than I do my own.

[FlowerChild]

OK, going to lock this down as people can't even seem to be bothered to read a few posts above theirs to keep up with the conversation before posting.

I've outlined my plans above if anyone is interested.