Design Discussion: The Nuking of maps

[FlowerChild]

So, digging into the map code to fix up the problems that arose in the 1.4 port, an opinion finally solidified for me:

I don't like maps as a game feature. At all.

I guess I kinda like them as a decorative feature but that's about it. How I'm winding up feeling is that I'm putting increasing numbers of band aids trying to balance a concept which is fundamentally flawed.

Here's the things I don't like about them:

-Again acts as a global GPS. When they work the player will always get an absolute idea of their position. This goes contrary to hardcore info. I tried rectifying this somewhat by making it so that the player is only able to collect info with them when on the surface, but still...it's a GPS.

-If they work AT ALL, then they will serve in this capacity. I can reduce that effect somewhat, but I can't eliminate it. At even the basic level of just drawing in the terrain, the player can use them to get what I feel to be exploity info about their location.

-They keep getting more and more exploity in this regard as Mojang "improves" them. For example, now you can get a direction off of them to any arbitrary point (wherever the map was created), no matter where you are.

So, instead of investing more time in them and fighting what I feel to be a losing battle against an idea that's fundamentally flawed, I'm considering nuking them entirely and just eliminating them from the game.

Obviously, people are likely to have some very strong opinions on this, and I myself do consider them awfully purty when hanging in frames, so I wanted to open this up to discussion to get a bit more input on how people feel about them and their possible elimination.

So, fire away :)

[Charzy]

At high risk of making a suggestion, perhaps if you made it so that maps instantly appear, are more expensive, and are higher in the tech tree? Decoratively, they are quite nice to put together on massive walls of frames to see your surroundings, and if they didn't have the pointer on them and mapped instantly, and were harder to obtain, then they'd both be unable to serve as a GPS, and still work as, well, maps.

Edit: Aaand it just hit me that they'd show where you are anyway because you'd always be in the middle of them. Sorry, please ignore my stupid ramblings.

[Battlecat]

Honestly I haven't bothered crafting one in ages so I don't see their removal as a big loss other than the "pretty picture on wall" effect that you've mentioned. But with their increasing GPS powers, they are almost replacing F3 in some ways now which is just silly.

You shouldn't waste your time trying to band-aid Mojang's mistakes. Nuke them and spend your time on something more interesting.

[hordekips]

Although I wouldn't have anything against you ripping them out i guess just disabling them showing the player position would help as you would still need to use landmarks which is how maps should've been done in the first place if they were added to the game

But since you are the master of game design just rip them out if you think it is the right idea as you haven't realy made any decisions what have made the game less enjoyable, you have done quite the opposite and made me remember the good old days of alpha

So I'm all go for nukeing them!

[Last_Jedi_Standing]

I like maps. My suggestion (I don't know how else to phrase that) is that you remove the player-locator-cursor thing entirely, including the off-map direction dot. Then they'll work exactly like real maps, still be pretty, and be fairly useless as a GPS. The Minecraft landscape all looks pretty much the same from the air. A player doesn't have much chance of being able to recognize the terrain he's standing on by looking at a map, even on the smallest zoom level. If a player is willing to create landmarks in the world that are large enough to be seen on a map that's zoomed out enough to be useful, they should be able to. As far as I know, that kind of landmark-constructing mentality is what you're trying to encourage, so it'd be a good thing.

EDIT: Removed the J-word.

[FlowerChild]

Edit: Aaand it just hit me that they'd show where you are anyway because you'd always be in the middle of them. Sorry, please ignore my stupid ramblings.

Well, relative to surrounding terrain, yes, but you'd have no idea where you were in the overall world.

This isn't bad, but the problem is, it WOULD take a lot of work to get it just right, and since it would involve extensive modifications to Mojang's code, it would also rapidly become a pain in the ass to maintain (which is one of my big causes for despair with the mods to them I'm working on right now).

The map code is pretty damn complex. In order to "fix them" I thus have to make some pretty invasive modifications to what already exists, and that means each time MC updates, I have to go through and verify each of those changes is still working right.

Now, given I don't even like the things and the information they provide to players to begin with, I find myself asking why the heck I'm doing this :)

With regards to them being purely decorative, then the question becomes: would I invest this much time in an aesthetic feature that I could be spending elsewhere? Ultimately, the answer to that is no.

[FlowerChild]

"Just" a word of advice guys: please try to avoid using the word "just" in these posts, as it immediately makes me cringe ;)

There is no "just" level of task with these things. The code is complex enough for maps that it's a real pain in the ass to get this stuff done.

[hordekips]

"Just" a word of advice guys: please try to avoid using the word "just" in these posts, as it immediately makes me cringe ;)

There is no "just" level of task with these things. The code is complex enough for maps that it's a real pain in the ass to get this stuff done.

Will keep that in mind in the future :)

[Battosay]

I'd really dislike that. I'm not a big fan of ripping out part of vMC, even if now you're willing to do so. Especially old ones that we're used to.
Why not *only* remove the player's position ?

[Luciferous Leo]

I kinda like maps, but do agree that serving as a gps they feel rather crazy, there is no way anyone is that good at looking at a map.

if they [...] mapped instantly, and were harder to obtain, then they'd both be unable to serve as a GPS, and still work as, well, maps.

Although this does make them harder to use it seems a bit unrealistic and overpowered with zoomed out maps (since you have no exploring to do)

Personally, I really think maps should serve as a log of your travels with no built in positioning system.

So what if maps never point to your location, but instead you could mark a dot on the map for important locations just so you remember that they are there, and then have to work off the land to find the right place.

[finite8]

Wow. You must be feeling in a gamey mood to open the opinion floodgates like this.

I however don't mind Maps. I totally love that the debug info has been nuked... that should never have been in the released version. The thing is though that Maps are still a good game element. I don't think it is unfair that players can map out the area around them. If you have explored an area, you should be able to visually represent that somehow (i know i would in real life). Considering the map is crafted with a Compass, then i would definitely expect some kind of navigation functions.

I do think though that it is a bit unusual that without ink or real effort, the map magically populates itself with information the player cannot see. I like the current balancing you have put in there, but maybe the following is possible:
- Reduce what area gets mapped to just 9 chunks surrounding the player. This is all the player can see so they shouldn't see any more than this.
- The compass added to the map isn't giving Steve a GPS but rather a referential aid. To this end, you can only add to the map when you are adjacent or within an already mapped chunk. If you are outside of this, no map and no pointer.
- Mapping consumes ink?

BUT, i know i don't use maps. I rely on my own instinct and knowledge of an area and so far, that has been pretty good. There are others though that think differently and Maps provide an excellent way for them to visually represent where they are. Even though i don't use them, i don't think they should be removed either. I do think they should be nerfed, but again that is asking for you to do a potentially major redesign of the mapping system which isn't really fair either.

[hordekips]

So what if maps just never point to your location, but instead you could mark a dot on the map for important locations just so you remember that they are there, and then have to work off the land to find the right place.

That might be a nice idea but i think adding the marking system would be a pain in the ass to add and to maintain through MC updates...

[FlowerChild]

Ok, will give a try with removing player position and see what the results are like to both the code and play.

Brb ;)

[FlowerChild]

I'd really dislike that. I'm not a big fan of ripping out part of vMC, even if now you're willing to do so. Especially old ones that we're used to.
Why not *only* remove the player's position ?

As I said above, it's a matter of how invasive the code changes need to be. Will see how bad it gets.

[Ethinolicbob]

Whilst there is the balancing concern of having something capable of being a GPS in the game, the presence of cartography in the game is an amazing feature and I would be sad to see it go.

Subjectively: I would love to see the map system stay in the game, modified and balanced. It is a great instrument for planning building sites & transport systems. There is a plethora of suggestions that can be made to aid this effect.

Objectively: It's not a game-breaking feature to remove. The amount of time and energy needed to balance this feature will not likely fit your "Bang-for-Buck" model of design. Leaving it in unmodified will only serve as keeping an unbalanced feature in the world or BTW.

So, I would probably cry seeing this feature removed and you would probably get whined at by (mapaboos?) I don't think you as a designer, can leave this feature as it is.
If there is a ton of energy needed to balance this feature then the only logical conclusion is to axe it.

[Wafflewaffle]

Particularly I dont mind maps, im not a wanderer and believe that a compass is pretty much all i need in SSP. Thats a very "player" opinion and reflects my experience on the game.

BUT, if I look at it with a more calculated approach, the problem is not in the Global GPS aspect of it that bothers, its the "on the go" aspect of it. Take the mobility out of the map, make it so you can only see it when its hanging on the wall, and i believe IMHO that the problem is solved.

[Itamarcu]

I suggest not only removing the player position, but also to force a certain zoom level on maps (Making the size something like a quarter of the current size?) and make them instantly map the entire area and not update anymore (even if you change the terrain). Maps should be used as a way of roughly measuring distances between points in the world, or to know how your surroundings look like - and "nerfing" them this way would make them much more valuable, since a player who wants to go on a journey would carry half a dozen of maps wherever he went, and stop once in a while to map the area.

I usually don't mind doing those vanilla changes, but I have to say the map is one of the things I do enjoy having in my worlds.

[the_fodder]

I LOVE the fact that you are making a game YOU want to play, and see how they mess anarchy play. I was looking forward to hanging up the new maps and showing my kingdom, also planning on playing with them more in general now that F3 is gone.

Thank you for trying to find a way to keep them in game for those of us who play differently.


... EDIT
that moved fast...

I like what everyone has said about possible balance solutions. One more would be to slow down the fill rate, make us work for the map.

[BinoAl]

I'm curious about how removing player position will affect the fun of maps... I think I'm gonna actually replace the pointer image with an empty texture to try it out :)

[Sneezy]

I hate to use them mainly due to their view blocking when trying to fill them in and the inventory slot they take up. But I tend to have a pretty goood sense of direction even ingame (I'm great in real life :p )

In vanilla I finally made one, expanded and filled it in then stuck it in an item frame. I really like them for the decorative use (without the big green maker would be better.) Even better would be a larger size to stick on the wall, more than 1x1.

I hadn't really considered how they could be used as a 'gps.' It does seem exploity put that way. :( I really like the idea of taking off the markers, that makes it more like 'just a map.' If they have to go entirely personally I won't be too upset.

[SageEthereal]

Not sure if this is possible, considering I am not a coder, but if you want to keep the aesthetic appeal of the maps but remove the functionality; maybe a set of static, pre-generated images can be used (kind of like paintings) instead of showing true geography. You get pretties to hang in your house without the magical paper-based GPS.

One other possibility, is to remove the player-cursor, and add a compass rose with the direction in relation to the map, and make the compass visible while holding the map (like you would be holding both, since one is used in the construction) and have it locked in a particular cardinal direction (instead of pointing at spawn, I am not sure how said directions work in Minecraft though). You would be able to navigate by looking at the map and using your compass in relation to the details on said map, which would be a bit more realistic. Restricting the area of a map to the viewable distance to prevent you no longer having to explore could also decrease the overpowered nature.

Personally I don't use them, so wouldn't miss them if they were gone.

Of course, as I said before, I have no idea what I am talking about, not to mention I didn't word my second idea very well at all. ;)

[FlowerChild]

Ok, just tried with player indicators removed, and the code isn't too bad at all for it. I think I'll go with that for the time being and see how it impacts play. I don't see them being very useful GPS-wise without this (although I don't rule out someone figuring out a method regardless), and it preserves their decorative use with a minimum of hassle.

Not sure if this is possible, considering I am not a coder, but if you want to keep the aesthetic appeal of the maps but remove the functionality; maybe a set of static, pre-generated images can be used (kind of like paintings) instead of showing true geography. You get pretties to hang in your house without the magical paper-based GPS.

Well, one of the reasons they are interesting decoratively is you can get an overhead "picture" of your base to hang on your wall, and they can look very cool indeed (like the one for my main base is pretty awesome).

[BinoAl]

For those who want to try this early:
http://sargunster.com/btwforum/viewtopi ... =12&t=6131

[Ethinolicbob]

This is pretty outside the box kind of suggestion.
Is it possible to have maps only able to be visible whilst on the wall and a different item that isn't a map the thing that will update the map whilst holding and exploring with it? Possibly needing interaction between map and item to update map... or something

[EpicAaron]

I have one hanging above my now molding bed. Decoration is as far as they get with me.