Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

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FlowerChild
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

Sarudak wrote:So I finally got a low kerbin orbit with the help of the nav ball and that felt totally awesome and now I'm ready to try for mun if I can manage a rocket that can make it there. I want to say that this has been awesome fun.
Excellent man :)
I'm assuming I need to make it to the mun with the tech I have to manage enough science to get to T5? Also I'm not sure I understand the point of advanced rocketry in T4. It seems to give me a smaller engine that is less powerful for it's weight as well as smaller fuel tanks that hold the same amount of fuel for their weight. Why would I want that?
For top stages. The LV 909 is actually much more efficient in vacuum than other engines (that's what the Isp numbers represent: force generated vs fuel burned), and its low weight means you don't have to push as much around. This starts becoming rather important when you're heading towards the Mun, as you don't want to drag a lot of weight with you.

Basically, large rocket engines are only really needed to get into orbit. Once you're already up there, you have all the time you need to make gradual course corrections, so something like the LV-909 is a much better choice.

Same thing with the smaller tanks. They both provide greater flexibility in rocket designs, and give you wiggle room in taking a lower overall weight with you.

And lastly, once you want to actually land somewhere...yeah...you want to keep things light. I may one day try landing a probe on the Mun with one of the larger engines just for giggles, but I wouldn't recommend trying that the first time :)
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

Actually, since I mentioned it earlier and since I figure it might provide some inspiration, here's the Tech 5 rocket I used to land a probe on the Mun earlier today:
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I hadn't unlocked all the tech 5 tech yet, it's been further tweaked from the version you guys have (mostly towards harder ;) ), and it toppled over upon landing, but I was able to use RCS to rotate it over to get the antenna facing upwards and managed to transmit all the results I wanted to, so I'll call it a success ;)

In reference to what I said in the above post, it's worth mentioning that the LV-909 in the top stage and the 400 fuel tank I was using got me all the way from Kerbin orbit, to the Mun, into a stable orbit around it, and still had some fuel left in it after I had landed.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Sarudak »

So I notice that you're using all liquid fuel even for the initial stage. I had been using solid stage rockets for the initial stage because the tutorial claimed they had a better thrust to weight ratio but I'm wondering if you changed that and made the liquid engines have a better TWR since they're higher tech. Of course then they would have all the advantages. Unless there's some more powerful solid state rockets later or something.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Mason11987 »

Sarudak wrote:So I notice that you're using all liquid fuel even for the initial stage. I had been using solid stage rockets for the initial stage because the tutorial claimed they had a better thrust to weight ratio but I'm wondering if you changed that and made the liquid engines have a better TWR since they're higher tech. Of course then they would have all the advantages. Unless there's some more powerful solid state rockets later or something.
Try sticking just a probe (and maybe some wings) on a solid rocket, and measure it's height. Then do the same for liquid (try different thrust amounts too!). Experiments!
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Sarudak »

Hmmm... Actually I'm not looking to maximize thrust to weight but rather the specific impulse...
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Stormweaver »

Hmm.

Got to tier 5, picked up the mainsail, and I could finally reliably get to orbit with enough fuel for other things ^.^ Which gave a great sense of achievement all in itself ^.^

Now just got done with a flyby of the moon and have enough for two more techs. And it's a really hard pick :/ Lighter (and more) monopropellant would have let my flyby return home, SAS would be a godsend, and manned missions would get me more science...

and I can pick two. Choices, choices...
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

Yeah, I've been trying to incorporate meaningful choices into each of the nodes, and tech 5 is where that becomes particularly apparent with the additional changes I've made since last release. You wind up with very real decisions with regards to how to expand your space program particularly with regards to getting additional stuff done with probes (like landing them on the Mun or Minmus) or to start in on manned missions. I'm basically trying to set up tech 5 so that getting Kerbals into orbit for the first time is an attainable goal whereas sending them to the Mun or other bodies is just out of reach.

I'm also starting to play around with actual code for the mod now, with the first thing I'm trying to pull off is initially disabling RCS on EVAs until a later tech level is reached so I can work a bit of gameplay progression into EVAs as well. I might also disable space suits entirely at start so that sending a Kerbal EVA in tech 5 will basically be instant death.

And remember guys: Tech 5 is far from balanced in the release you guys have. Once you get to that stage, all bets are off with regards to how things actually play.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Sarudak »

That sounds exciting! Hopefully you don't completely forget about BTW and RTH... ;)

Were you still planning on making this a kind of mod pack where you would require the installation of other mods (like FAR or the one that adds missions) with this one?

Stormweaver how did you get enough science for the mainsail before going to the mun?? I've only got two more gravioli scans I can do (badlands, and tundra) and that won't get me enough for even one T5 tech. Is there some experiments I can do in orbit to get more? I think my one biggest frustration at this point is I have no way of knowing what might get me science and/or what I've already tried to get science. Some kind of mission system or checklist or something even if it was provided out of game would really help in directing my efforts. Of course I understand it's a work in progress so take what i just said with a grain of salt. ^_^

That said I've really been enjoying the game. Given I haven't played without your mod at all I can't say how much it specifically contributed but I think the directed nature, forced reliance on primitive technologies, and gradual unlocking of better and better goodies have had a huge impact on my enjoyment. :)
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

Sarudak wrote:That sounds exciting! Hopefully you don't completely forget about BTW and RTH... ;)
Nah man, this is just a little sideline project for me :)
Sarudak wrote: Were you still planning on making this a kind of mod pack where you would require the installation of other mods (like FAR or the one that adds missions) with this one?
I'm still debating that. So far, the mods I've looked into don't work exactly the way I'd like them to, and frankly, I think I could create a lot of the functionality I'm looking for relatively quickly myself, which would also save users the hassle of installing multiple mods, and me the hassle of maintaining compatibility with those mods (which, as has been established, I'm not a big fan of ;) ).

Still too soon to tell though, as I'm just getting a handle on how modding works on the coding side of KSP, and I still have a lot of questions about just what is possible/feasible.

It's not like MC where you basically have access to all the code and can go nuts. You only have access to very specific parts of the game, which results in much of the mod code being very cludgey/inefficient, and I'm really not a fan of having to jump through those kinds of hoops when trying to get a job done.
Stormweaver how did you get enough science for the mainsail before going to the mun?? I've only got two more gravioli scans I can do (badlands, and tundra) and that won't get me enough for even one T5 tech. Is there some experiments I can do in orbit to get more?
Have you been using your mystery goo? It has a pretty heavy duty science payout assuming you can return it back to Kerbin.
That said I've really been enjoying the game. Given I haven't played without your mod at all I can't say how much it specifically contributed but I think the directed nature, forced reliance on primitive technologies, and gradual unlocking of better and better goodies have had a huge impact on my enjoyment. :)
Awesome stuff man. And yeah, I realize it's a weird balance for you not knowing which parts are just KSP (which is a blast on its own), and which parts are my stuff, but hopefully as you continue to play you'll get a better impression of where the dividing line is :)
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Sarudak »

I've used the mystery goo on the ground, 'in flight', 'in the upper atmosphere', and 'in space above kerbin'. Is there more? I didn't try them on a ship that had done a full orbit. The game seems to make some distinction between being in orbit (you've gone around the planet once?) and just being in space (even if you're 180km up). I guess I'll have to try a lower and upper orbit with the goo.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

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Yeah, there's a dividing line at 250km that separates low orbit from high orbit and which act as different research zones.

I'm considering adding a bit of code to display the zone you're in at any given time to make all this a tad more transparent.

And no, it's not a matter of whether you've gone around the planet or what have you (although that does matter for the science you get when recovering vessels as that takes into account whether a flight was suborbital or orbital), just the altitude you're at when you run the experiment.

Also, with Mystery Goo, you've landed the craft and recovered the vessel after running the experiment right? You need to also keep in mind that the goo canister only stores the results of the last zone it was opened in, so ideally, you'd want to launch a rocket with multiple canisters (or multiple rockets with 1), open each canister in the zones you're interested in (1 canister per zone) and select to store the data, then return the vessel *without* running any further experiments on it.

Like I said in the OP, I'd like to modify the functionality for the canister to make this more intuitive by only allowing you to run the experiment once ever, and by removing the transmit button entirely (because transmitting with goo results in zero science gained), but for now, that's the way it works.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Sarudak »

Yes I did the goo properly. I had 3 canisters and I did all 3 zones in one go. And I recovered the craft successfully. I'd taken to recovering all my craft as soon as I got to the gravioli experiments because it's lighter to include 3-4 gravioli detectors and parachutes than the ridiculous amount of battery required to transmit gravioli data plus you get additional science for craft recovery. I don't think I've done any experiments at all above 250km so i'll do that next. I thought the high orbit separator was lower because even at 150 km it wouldn't let me run my gravioli detectors.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

Yeah, you have a shit-ton of science waiting for you in high orbit then. Make sure to take the earlier experiments like thermometers and barometers with you as well, as you're likely missing those too.

Also, 3 zones? Even without high orbit you should have 4. The zones around Kerbin are:

Landed/Launch pad
Low atmosphere
High atmosphere (> 18Km)
Low Orbit (> 70Km)
High Orbit (> 250Km)
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Sarudak »

Yeah I wasn't counting launch pad. I always do the launch pad science then immediately recover the craft before doing my real launch.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

Sarudak wrote:Yeah I wasn't counting launch pad. I always do the launch pad science then immediately recover the craft before doing my real launch.
Yeah, I hate the "calibrate on launch pad" part, but it's an unfortunate compromise at present because the way science system works, if you turn off the ability for an experiment to be run on the surface of Kerbin, it turns off the ability to run it on the surface of *all* celestial bodies, which obviously would just suck.

I may look into a coding solution for this though, as once I get to surface samples, I really don't want to be encouraging people to run all over Kerbin picking up rocks, but I'd very much like to leave the biomes on the surface of the moon active so that players have a reason to explore it and land multiple missions on it.

Ideally, I don't want any science being done on Kerbin, with the possible exception of the aircraft nosecone science thingy which will come much later in the tech tree, and even then, I might just restrict that to the upper atmosphere and the atmosphere of other planets with the assumption that other Kerbals have already discovered everything there is to know about the lower atmosphere.

I really don't like Squad's Kerbin-focus for science as it tends to take the whole "space" part out of the game IMO :P
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Mason11987 »

I can't wait to see what further tweaks you have. I'm going to continue forward with the tech tree but I enjoyed the first few tiers enough that it'll be fun to start over fresh when you've made the major adjustments you want to make. I hope KSP offers you enough freedom to make what you're trying to get.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Stormweaver »

Decided to watch a tutorial (I realised that I probably shouldn't need a mainsail to get into orbit) and after figuring out how that was supposed to go, decided to go to minmus for some science.

Minmus takes a really, really long time to get to.

Despite my 12 battery packs, I was only able to grab the high-altitude science before my probe died....and I proceeded to buy landing gear, when in hindsight saving a little bit more for solar panels might have been a better choice; given I can't figure out how I'm supposed to land on the mun when I can barely manage a circular orbit :3

Live and learn.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

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If you're playing within the BTSM tech tree, don't get too attached to solar panels as I will likely only be making them available around tech 7 :P
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Sarudak »

Hm... That's rough. I see why you're doing it though. You want some way to prevent long trips between planets right?
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

Sarudak wrote:Hm... That's rough. I see why you're doing it though. You want some way to prevent long trips between planets right?
Solar panels eliminate almost all questions of mission duration, so yes, it's a gameplay throttle. Once you get panels, electricity effectively becomes a non-issue in the inner solar system. It may not look like it at first glance, but it's an absolutely massive upgrade in terms of what it does to your gameplay capabilities.

Same kind of thing I did with the "no space suits" and "no RCS on EVA" (I just completed that tonight actually) which throttles the player's ability to do a lot of crazy shit until later in the tech tree and creates a more "natural" progression where sending probes out to land on the Mun and such before sending manned missions has in-game reasons behind it.

It's really not that rough of a design constraint. I've both landed probes on the Mun, and put them in orbit around Minmus without solar panels and without resorting to exploity rocket designs, and with plenty of power in them to transmit experiment results. Tech level 5 also unlocks the LV-45 rocket engine, which includes an alternator for recharging your batteries while it's running, which can also help you extend your battery life substantially. At tech level 6, I'll also likely be unlocking slightly lighter batteries than the previous models as well for what I'm essentially balancing to be the manned moon landing tech level.

Remember: there are still tech levels 7 through 9 after that (vanilla only goes up to 8, but they have an empty set of nodes at 9 I plan to make use of) to cover interplanetary missions.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Stormweaver »

Can I assume it's simply a happy co-incidence that for each extra battery I put on my rocket, the extra mass and drag is enough to make the mission take just long enough to drain an extra battery? :p I think I'll be seeing rocket designs in my sleep for figuring this one out. Being 100m/s away from landing on minmus (with just enough power to send one set of transmissions) is as close as I think I can get without sleeping in the intervening time >.<

Anyways, roundified monopropellant tanks bought. I figure that if I replace the reaction wheel with them, I can save a bit of power en-route, and maybe squeeze out that last bit of thrust from them.

...now to get as much achievement as possible before you release the next update and my monopropellant tanks grow tentacles and try eating me.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

Well, if push comes to shove, don't forget you can load some batteries on a lower stage, transfer the power in them to the batteries up top right before separation, and get a bit more lifetime out of them that way. Not all batteries need to be on your landing module to maximize the power it has ;)

Also don't forget that the LV-45 generates power when fired, so if you design your rocket so the 2nd to last stage uses one of those, and use it to decelerate into orbit around Minmus, then detaching your landing stage, you should be able to put a full charge onto it.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by devak »

FlowerChild wrote:Well, if push comes to shove, don't forget you can load some batteries on a lower stage, transfer the power in them to the batteries up top right before separation
How do i do this?
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Katalliaan »

devak wrote:How do i do this?
Right-click on one battery, then alt-right click (if you're on Linux, it's the right control key instead of alt) on the second.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

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FlowerChild wrote: Remember: there are still tech levels 7 through 9 after that (vanilla only goes up to 8, but they have an empty set of nodes at 9 I plan to make use of) to cover interplanetary missions.
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