Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

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Sarudak
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Sarudak »

So I'm assuming in the current version I have you haven't done anything with the science gained from manned missions since they give you only the smallest dribbles of science and force you to transmit them 3-4 times to get all the science. I think I would be hard pressed to get out of it what it cost me to develop it.

Also how many batteries are you guys using? I've been taking up 6 of the large batteries and I still sometimes don't have enough power just for my probe to get to the mun. I don't think I can realistically take much more and still be able to make it to orbit. :P
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Mason11987 »

Sarudak wrote:So I'm assuming in the current version I have you haven't done anything with the science gained from manned missions since they give you only the smallest dribbles of science and force you to transmit them 3-4 times to get all the science. I think I would be hard pressed to get out of it what it cost me to develop it.

Also how many batteries are you guys using? I've been taking up 6 of the large batteries and I still sometimes don't have enough power just for my probe to get to the mun. I don't think I can realistically take much more and still be able to make it to orbit. :P
How long are you taking to get there? When I do it I normally launch to 75k or so Apoapsis, then at Apoapsis I accelerate until I have a Periapsis above 100k. Then at Periapsis I accelerate to the Mun. Not sure if that's a good plan though. But I got
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by TheAnarchitect »

FC, you're awesome for incentivizing experimental missions.

Are you planning on doing anything that incentivizes more permanent installations? Something that gives me a reason to put a space station in orbit other than "It'd be cool" ?
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

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Sarudak wrote:So I'm assuming in the current version I have you haven't done anything with the science gained from manned missions since they give you only the smallest dribbles of science and force you to transmit them 3-4 times to get all the science. I think I would be hard pressed to get out of it what it cost me to develop it.
That's tech level 5 man, which is completely unbalanced in the version you guys are playing and doesn't even have the right parts in place (it's just got a few that I thought *might* work there). I think I got it just about to the point where I'm happy with it last night though, so I may put out another pre-release soon.

But yeah man, what you're playing at that tech level isn't really BTSM anymore :)

On that note, I also upped the science output of the Gravioli Detector. I did a full play through last night to see how my tech 5 changes fit with the rest of the progression, and decided that tech 3 was a bit slow. I had actually made a quick change to it right before the last release (previously the Gravioi Detector provided different results in low and high orbit and I got rid of that as being too ambiguous), and thought I had changed the values to compensate, but it wasn't quite right.
Sarudak wrote: Also how many batteries are you guys using? I've been taking up 6 of the large batteries and I still sometimes don't have enough power just for my probe to get to the mun. I don't think I can realistically take much more and still be able to make it to orbit. :P
Well, if you take a look at my Mun probe that I posted earlier in the thread, I only have 3 large batteries on it. I suspect your approach to getting there might be slightly less than efficient :)

Did you go through the "going to the Mun" in-game tutorial? If I remember right I'm still just using the approach outlined there. It might be a matter of me being so familiar with doing so now that I'm more efficient at it than I realize, but the above really sounds excessive.

Also, the heavier your landing module is, the more difficult the landing will get, so it's worthwhile to try to get the weight of it as low as you can.
TheAnarchitect wrote:FC, you're awesome for incentivizing experimental missions.
Thanks man! I thought you were the last person that would appreciate this thing given your views on the campaign, so much obliged :)
Are you planning on doing anything that incentivizes more permanent installations? Something that gives me a reason to put a space station in orbit other than "It'd be cool" ?
Yeah, I'd like to, and same thing with just regular satellites. Ideally, I'd like results to be able to be transmitted automatically over time, so you could put something like a Gravioli into orbit, start doing other stuff, and just have results continue to trickle in over time instead of following it around in orbit and manually triggering the thing over different zones.

The science system really isn't anywhere close to being setup for that though, so my approach at present is to just balance the basic tech progression to my liking using the tools that are already present, then look into expanding the system with stuff like that if I feel the need/desire to do so.

I know I've seen a couple of threads on the KSP forums with people talking about creating mods to do precisely that, so it's possible that by the time I'm done with the first pass they'll already be a solution in place which I can make a "required mod" for BTSM.

Like I mentioned last night, BTSM has its first small bits of code in it now for handling early crew stuff, but I really don't have a sufficient knowledge of the code base yet to know how much work would be involved with something like the above, or even if it's possible through modding.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Sarudak »

I can't wait! I've already played through twice... :P

And I'll happily start over again. :D

I think my problem with the mun is I haven't figured out how to do it exactly right. Alot of times I end up with an intercept that is on the back swing of the orbit. (as in I have to go further out and past the apostasis). Anyway that part of the orbit takes soooo long that I end up running out of battery. I've only successfully hit the mun with a probe once and I got readings for far above and near and then quite literally hit the mun. :P

I just can't seem to figure out exactly how those little green marker things work. But I'll keep at it lol.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

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Sarudak wrote:I can't wait! I've already played through twice... :P

And I'll happily start over again. :D
Oh wow man. Sounds like you're getting really hooked. KSP is almost as crack-like as MC is :)

Sarudak wrote: I think my problem with the mun is I haven't figured out how to do it exactly right. Alot of times I end up with an intercept that is on the back swing of the orbit. (as in I have to go further out and past the apostasis). Anyway that part of the orbit takes soooo long that I end up running out of battery. I've only successfully hit the mun with a probe once and I got readings for far above and near and then quite literally hit the mun. :P

I just can't seem to figure out exactly how those little green marker things work. But I'll keep at it lol.
A couple of small tips. First, read this:

http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Maneuver_node

...seriously...read it :)

I don't use them myself for doing transfer orbits to the Mun anymore as I've done it so many times that I've developed a good feel for eyeballing it, but they can help a ton in terms of seeing where different trajectories will place you without actually burning the fuel.

Also, don't be afraid to thrust in the opposite direction if you overshoot the moon with your initial burn to transfer to it. You can also use RCS thrusters to make much finer adjustments to your trajectory than you'll ever get with your regular engines, and do so without having to reorient your craft in the opposite direction all the time. I usually fiddle for awhile with my trajectory via RCS after my burn to try and cut down my travel time and get as close as possible to my desired orbit upon arrival.

There's a whole set of controls associated with firing RCS in different directions (not just using it for rotation), so I'd recommend looking this over:

http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Key_Bindings

RCS is an incredibly powerful tool once you get accustomed to using it, which was one of the reasons I decided to make it available in the tech tree before reaction wheels, as I really wanted to encourage people to play around with it and learn how it works. With reaction wheels you basically just get "free" rotation on your craft without all the additional subtleties of RCS (and even worse, in vanilla it's just built into all the pods so rotation becomes a given), so I kinda wanted to provide people with incentive to really learn what RCS does before just giving them the "easy button" so that it will be a known tool in their arsenal for later play.

And finally, don't forget to target the Mun when you're performing your transfer. Just click on it in the map view and "set as target". This will provide additional information about its relative position on the map and where your orbits are intersecting or getting closest (shown as little blue arrows on your own trajectory and the Mun's). Those arrows can give you a much better idea of how much longer you have to burn for a transfer and a good idea of when and how much to throttle down as you get closer to the mark.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Sarudak »

FlowerChild wrote: Oh wow man. Sounds like you're getting really hooked. KSP is almost as crack-like as MC is :)
Hehe yeah. I was out for happy hour with my wife yesterday and after a while she's like. "You didn't listen to anything I just said did you? Are you still thinking about getting to the Mun?" :P

Anyway I think I'm going to wait on playing more until you get your next release out. I don't want to get ahead of the tech tree... :)
FlowerChild wrote: A couple of small tips. First, read this:

http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Maneuver_node

-snip-
Yeah that helps a lot! I'll have to try that out. And I did already know about the RCS bit. RCS is the best! :)

I haven't gotten to try out SAS yet though... :P

PS: When do we get radial decouplers? I really want them. Also do decouplers get any stronger? I hate the way my ship wobbles about on the launch pad or during launch looks like it's made of gummy candy or something.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by TheAnarchitect »

Well, it's not how I would have done it, but that doesn't prevent me from enjoying doing science. SCIENCE!

(And I'm certainly not going to beat a dead horse about my gameplay ideas. If I've learned anything by your example, it's that if I have that strong an opinion, I should just make my own goddamn mod.)
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Gilberreke »

I want to play this mod, but I'm addicted to BTW again. First world problems? :)
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Sarudak »

I really am looking forward to seeing where this game goes. The kethane mod seems really interesting to me and I think it would awesome if you progressed from simple exploration to colonization and industry. Like you could eventually build orbital factories and bring in asteroids to melt down in orbit or some such. Scanning planets for valuable resources and harvesting them would be awesome. Although I think at that point you would need something to control ships that you weren't piloting yourself or it would all become unmanageable. Maybe I'm trying to shoehorn another game type on a rocket simulator. :P
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Mason11987 »

Sarudak wrote:Also do decouplers get any stronger? I hate the way my ship wobbles about on the launch pad or during launch looks like it's made of gummy candy or something.
I've found struts to serve this job nicely, they get broken as well when parts detach with decouplers.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Sarudak »

Hm... Could I see an example of what you mean? Where would you put the struts?
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

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Sarudak wrote:PS: When do we get radial decouplers?
Haven't decided yet, but will likely be at or above tech level 7.

Don't forget that tech 6 is what I intend as "manned moon landing" tech, and as far as I know parallel staging wasn't really a thing with the U.S. until the space shuttle program, while the U.S.S.R were using it pretty much from the start even with the Sputnik launch. The U.S.S.R. also didn't really place a premium on reliability in their space program the way NASA did, so I think they often opted for much more experimental (and thus less reliable) approaches than the US. So, I think parallel staging has a certain high-tech feel to it, at least higher tech than I want things at right now (which I guess is a rough equivalent to the 1960's at tech levels 5 & 6).

It's another one of those things that also really opens up gameplay possibilities that I want to throttle for the player at present and which I would prefer to reserve for "probes to other planets" tech, which I intend to start happening around tech 7.

Fuel lines are another one I'm likely to be pushing way back for similar reasons (maybe even restricting them to tech level 8 or 9) as they TOTALLY change the game by introducing asparagus designs, and actually represent something that is just becoming practical with modern technology.

For those curious, this is the first rocket that will make use of it, and it's still in the design and testing stage:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falcon_Heavy

This is the particularly relevant part in the description of the first stage:
Falcon Heavy has been designed with a unique propellant crossfeed capability, where some of the center core engines are supplied with fuel and oxidizer from the two side cores, up until the side cores are near empty and ready for the first separation event.[31] Thus, although engines from all three cores ignite at launch, the main core uses little[citation needed] of its own propellant until booster separation. There are three separation events: the simultaneous separation of the two booster cores followed later by the separation of the main booster core from the second stage. This is akin to a three stage rocket and thus enables greater performance.[32] Compared to what is thought of as a two and a half stage rocket, like the Delta IV Heavy, the Falcon Heavy central core can operate at full thrust and yet still be left with a nearly full fuel load after booster separation.
And it's what fuel lines make possible in KSP.
Sarudak wrote:I really want them. Also do decouplers get any stronger? I hate the way my ship wobbles about on the launch pad or during launch looks like it's made of gummy candy or something.
As noted above, and is a common mantra within the KSP community: "MORE STRUTS!" :)

Again, this is another thing I pushed relatively late in tech (although not as late as the above) as it really changes how large you can build your rockets, which I figured was appropriate as we start nearing Saturn V analogues.

As for wobbling on the launch pad, there's those launch pad support thingies man. Again, you can refer back to my Mun probe screenshot for an example of how they are used.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

Sarudak wrote:Hm... Could I see an example of what you mean? Where would you put the struts?
This should give you some ideas:

http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki ... _Apollo_11
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Sarudak »

I don't think I have any struts yet. The only thing I have is that crazy metal bar structure thing that I can't figure out how to use effectively. Also I've never been able to use more than one decoupler between stages and have the rocket parts stay together after decoupling. Usually rockets are flying all over the place once I decouple. But maybe I need these magical 'struts' for that also... :P
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

Sarudak wrote:I don't think I have any struts yet. The only thing I have is that crazy metal bar structure thing that I can't figure out how to use effectively.
I think struts are in the tech level 5 structural node. At least they are in my version, but I'm not sure if I included them in the last....

Just checked the config for it. Yeah, you have them at tech level 5 in advanced construction in the last release.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Sarudak »

Ok. I didn't buy that node cause I didn't understand why my rocket needed little sticks... ;D
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

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Sarudak wrote:Ok. I didn't buy that node cause I didn't understand why my rocket needed little sticks... ;D
Lol...yeah, those are key tech actually, and the main incentive behind purchasing that node :)

A lot of what I'm doing is identifying the key components in the game that allow players to do crazy shit, throttling those, then filling in additional parts around them that make sense given the current tech level, as opposed to the vanilla progression which gives you access to that key tech very early on and thus opens up the game way too fast IMO (which really is my gameplay objection to manned missions being available right from the start to begin with). Really, in vanilla then it just kindof results in you being able to do pretty much everything very early in the tech tree, with additional parts just acting as refinements to the capabilities you already have rather than being anything really new.

But yes, struts while seemingly innocent looking are one such tech :)
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by Sarudak »

Ok well I'll have to try out these magical 'struts' when you release the next version. :)

Btw thanks for all the work you've put into this and for sharing it with us. :)
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

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Sarudak wrote: Btw thanks for all the work you've put into this and for sharing it with us. :)
Bah, my pleasure man. I'm really enjoying doing this I just wish I had more time to devote to it as things are getting pretty hectic for me with all the balls I'm juggling.

It's good fun though, I just have to be careful to manage my own time with regards to it. Gods damned finite lifespan and all that :)
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

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FlowerChild wrote: It's good fun though, I just have to be careful to manage my own time with regards to it. Gods damned finite lifespan and all that :)
Well... There's still a chance. I'm pretty sure the singularity is coming and then who knows what might be possible... ;)
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

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TheAnarchitect wrote:Well, it's not how I would have done it, but that doesn't prevent me from enjoying doing science. SCIENCE!

(And I'm certainly not going to beat a dead horse about my gameplay ideas. If I've learned anything by your example, it's that if I have that strong an opinion, I should just make my own goddamn mod.)
Just to back up the conversation a bit and return to this point:

Man, if I've somehow managed to impart the "if you want to do something right..." philosophy through what I've done with BTW and this thing, I think I can die a happy man :)

I can't help but chuckle when I think back to the "wolves are a bad idea" thread and how I don't think any of my detractors really expected me to just go off and do something about it, especially not to the scale I did. I kinda scoffed recently in a thread over on the KSP forums when I was indirectly referred to as a "whiner" due to my negative views on the campaign as it was implemented. I couldn't help but think "buddy...you really don't know who you're dealing with" ;)
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

Here we go, new version:

Download Link

I'm tired, and want to keep this informal anyways while it's WIP, so I'll just update the link in the OP for now but not the rest of the info.

Here's a partial change-log though (partial because I only realized half-way through developing it that creating a change-log was a good idea), which is also included in the readme in the .zip:

-Tech level 4 is now largely balanced. Only small changes were made since last release, mostly to the goo container and antenna unlocked at that level. The Goo Container is a little less finicky now, in that the experiment can only be run once, but the option to transmit the data is unfortunately still present in this release, despite it netting 0 science (so don't do that ;) ). The antenna has had its values balanced more relative to the previous model.

-Tech level 5 is now partially balanced. Extensive modifications were made here, as the previous release only had a few placeholder parts in there. Note that the Crew Report experiment is sensitive to different biomes in low orbit, much like the Gravioli Detector, but functions in other zones as well, unlike the detector.

-Tech level 6 has a few parts in it but is entirely unbalanced and should probably be avoided. The current tech progression should be considered to end at tech level 5.

-Kerbals on EVA now do not have access to RCS thrusters until Field Science (tech level 7) is researched.

-Kerbals do not have access to space suits until Advanced Exploration (tech level 6) is researched. Going EVA without a space suit will obviously have negative consequences under most circumstances. For now, they still appear to have space suits/helmets on visually, but I'll try to address that down the road. Along with the above change, what this means is that at tech level 5 when you research your first manned capsule, you really shouldn't be leaving it in flight, and are largely restricted to crew reports for experimental results. Note also that while under some circumstances you may be able to perform them (like on the surface of Kerbin), I have yet to balance the EVA Report and surface sample experiments, so they should probably be avoided at present.

-Increased the science yield of the Gravioli meter to make tech level 3 a little less grindy, and eliminated the high orbit and surface readings entirely so that it *only* functions in low orbit to hopefully make its use a little more evident.

Enjoy! :)
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by TheAnarchitect »

FlowerChild wrote:Just to back up the conversation a bit and return to this point:

Man, if I've somehow managed to impart the "if you want to do something right..." philosophy through what I've done with BTW and this thing, I think I can die a happy man :)

I can't help but chuckle when I think back to the "wolves are a bad idea" thread and how I don't think any of my detractors really expected me to just go off and do something about it, especially not to the scale I did. I kinda scoffed recently in a thread over on the KSP forums when I was indirectly referred to as a "whiner" due to my negative views on the campaign as it was implemented. I couldn't help but think "buddy...you really don't know who you're dealing with" ;)
Oh, your definitely not the only person who's imparted that on me, but you have certainly provided a good example of How and Why it works. I understand a lot of what you talk about game design and modding-wise, because that's what I do with Tabletop RPGs. The only thing keeping me from throwing together my own mods for computer games is a lack of programming know-how. Really I'm just waiting for a sufficient motivator to make me go "I want to do this bad enough I'm going to learn how."

KSP might be where I start: I'm waiting for Remotetech 2 and/or BTSM to be release-ready before I really get back into it, and I know I'm going to have to do some work to get them to play nice together. (I suspect that only being able to control probes you have a communication link to will play merry hell with early tech tree missions to the point that they'd be impossible.) I also know that if I add things like Kethane to my mix, I'm going to have to massively rework the tech tree on my own. There's a better than zero chance that getting the campaign mode *I* want for KSP will be what finally kicks me into modding.

Probably the more important example you've set is balancing challenge and player capabilities. Having listened to your many rants on how limiting player capabilities creates fun, and having personally played and enjoyed the product of your game design theory, is partially what makes me feel confident that I understand what I need as a player well enough to create it as a designer.
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Re: Better Than Starting Manned (Flower's WIP KSP mod )

Post by FlowerChild »

Well, Remote Tech integration is one of the things I personally want to look into once this first pass at the tech tree is done.

There are a number of "realism" mods I would potentially like to make required for BTSM, including stuff like Deadly Reentry, a life support plugin (not sure which yet or if I'll make my own), FAR, and Remote Tech. After that I might look into expanded functionality mods like KAS and Kethane as well. I'd also like to get some kind of economy going here to reduce the effectiveness of exploity designs either through Mission Controller or my own solution, although I am actually a bit surprised at the level of balance that seems to be attainable through the science tech tree alone.

What I'm doing now is just a baseline pass at tech progression which I plan to expand on from there, but yeah, I think we actually have very similar taste in additional mods, so don't be surprised if I start integrating the stuff you're looking for later on :)
TheAnarchitect wrote:Probably the more important example you've set is balancing challenge and player capabilities. Having listened to your many rants on how limiting player capabilities creates fun, and having personally played and enjoyed the product of your game design theory, is partially what makes me feel confident that I understand what I need as a player well enough to create it as a designer.
Awwww....shucks man, thanks. That kind of stuff really does make me feel good about what I've been doing the past couple of years :)

I didn't set out to pass along game design knowledge or whatever, but I must admit I find it particularly gratifying when I hear that I have.
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