Future of BTW?

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CrimsonStorm
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Future of BTW?

Post by CrimsonStorm »

This is mostly directed to FC from a long-time mostly lurker--I've seen interesting conversations come out of similar questions people have asked in the past, but it's been a while, so I figure it wouldn't hurt to ask again. With that preface:

At a high level, what are your thoughts on the future development of BTW? It's been a little less than a year since the last release (4.A and 4.A1), and it was about a year between releases before that (4.A0D-4.A0F). Do you intend to keep a similar pattern (infrequent small tweaks as inspiration strikes you) going forward? Are there larger-scale changes or additions that you want to make to the game? Are you pretty much completely done, and if so, is there anything else fun you're working on lately?


To be clear--this isn't intended with any sort of expectation. I completely believe BTW is in a state where it could be left pretty much as-is and be a very satisfying game which I will likely continue to return to over the years. I'm just curious to hear where your thoughts are as-of late.
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BobSlingblade679
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Re: Future of BTW?

Post by BobSlingblade679 »

I think there's at least the device left as a pre-cursor to RTH.
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CrimsonStorm
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Re: Future of BTW?

Post by CrimsonStorm »

BobSlingblade679 wrote:I think there's at least the device left as a pre-cursor to RTH.
I know that was the plan a few years ago, but a lot can change in that time. :)
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Gilberreke
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Re: Future of BTW?

Post by Gilberreke »

I'll chime in and say that I'm very happy with the current state of the mod and that I wouldn't mind if this is the final state. Apart from some minor things, such as a bit of a mid-game lull and the post-end tech not being that useful since there's not a lot to do at that point, except for automate for automation's sake, I can't see a single flaw I'd want fixed.

We were talking on the IRC that we wouldn't mind a few simple tweaks to the post-end maybe, so that the world is a bit more hostile. Maybe some extra powerful wither to farm or always-hostile endermen (these are silly ideas of course, just something of that nature). Gives you something to do at that point, you know?

I think I saw FC is still struggling with his eyesight though. Obviously he doesn't owe us anything (after all this, I'd say it's rather the complete opposite ;) ). The mod is wonderful and still the best experience you can get out of Minecraft. And yeah, I agree that I'll get at least a few more years of fun out of it regardless :). Whatever happens is fine for me.
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BobSlingblade679
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Re: Future of BTW?

Post by BobSlingblade679 »

It's funny you say that. Acquisition of SFS has always been my favorite part of the mod and I'm really itching to get up to it again.

Early game is actually the part I don't like. Well, aspects of it. Namely, punching a tree for two minutes straight. After getting your first stone axe, it's pretty fun from then on, but hcSpawning and knowing I have to go through punching trees again just sucks big time.

That and the prospect of jungle temples combined with the fact you have only 20 minutes to recover your stuff on death and that temples in hcSpawn range are empty. It basically means, I don't want to explore one. But I dunno, maybe there's an effective way to combat them I haven't figured out, yet (jungle spiders, I mean).

Anyway, I don't think just making things artificially harder after reaching the End by making Enderman aggro is a great idea. It wouldn't really give you much to do beyond making a 2-block-tall structure everywhere in the End and basically force you to do the same to your Overworld base(s) as well since they can get through/around walls. That, to me, kind of disincentivizes building.

Besides, I believe FC mentioned he's not satisfied with the feel immediately after acquiring the crucible as you no longer have any need for anything. I think whatever he comes up with for that area would likely be extendable to end-game, as well.

--edit--
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Gilberreke
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Re: Future of BTW?

Post by Gilberreke »

BobSlingblade679 wrote:-snip-
Bob, I think you missed a lot of things while you were gone. Here's a little recap:

- There probably won't be a "device" in an upcoming update, because RTH became sort of its own game idea
- There probably won't be coming any major updates to BTW anymore in any case
- There might not be any updates anymore at all, unless FC's health comes back, which is of course more important than a mod

You seem to operate under the impression that there will be string of steady updates to come and that RTH is a sure thing. I feel at this point, no one in the community expects that to happen any time soon, if at all, and we're all just rooting for FC's eyesight to become better and that's pretty much it :)
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BobSlingblade679
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Re: Future of BTW?

Post by BobSlingblade679 »

Oh. Yeah, I missed some things for sure. I'm very sorry to hear about FC's health. I've always had a deep amount of respect for him as a game designer.

I'm not sure where you got that the device wouldn't be a thing *because* of RTH, though.

Also, I've never expected a "steady string of updates". I know he adds things when he's inspired.

--edit--

Also, I don't really appreciate your implication that I would consider updating the mod more important than his, or anyone's health.
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Gilberreke
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Re: Future of BTW?

Post by Gilberreke »

BobSlingblade679 wrote:Also, I don't really appreciate your implication that I would consider updating the mod more important than his, or anyone's health.
I implicated that you weren't aware of this fact, I never meant to say anything disrespectful, it's all good man :)
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BobSlingblade679
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Re: Future of BTW?

Post by BobSlingblade679 »

We're cool. I'm sorry for jumping to conclusions. Sad fact about communication via text is that body language and tone are lost in translation.
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FlowerChild
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Re: Future of BTW?

Post by FlowerChild »

Sorry I didn't respond earlier. Being a bit of a political junky (despite the inability to discuss it here), I was glued to the TV most of the day :)

Right now, the best answer I can give is "I don't know", which is why I don't talk about such things much anymore. As has been previously mentioned, my problems with my eyesight have thrown a monkey wrench into many of my plans the past couple of years, and have left me taking pretty much everything in my life (not just the mod) on a day by day basis. I've had a few periods of improvement only to have things go south on me again after a time, so I'm reluctant to even mention it when I'm doing well as I know by now it may just be temporary. I'm also reluctant to discuss any plans I might have as my ability to follow through on them is entirely up in the air.

Anyways, my apologies, but that's about all I got. There could be a new release tomorrow, or there might not be another one for another year. Obviously this is an incredibly frustrating situation for a guy like me that loves making games pretty much more than anything else in life, so your patience and understanding is appreciated.
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Re: Future of BTW?

Post by FlowerChild »

BobSlingblade679 wrote: Early game is actually the part I don't like. Well, aspects of it. Namely, punching a tree for two minutes straight. After getting your first stone axe, it's pretty fun from then on, but hcSpawning and knowing I have to go through punching trees again just sucks big time.
Just a quick note on this one since it's an interesting topic, the discussion of which you may have missed out on:

Stuff like punching trees really isn't about the activity itself being fun. It's not fun, nor is it intended to be.

What it's intended to do is make pretty much everything else in the game more fun by upping the tension level significantly. You're right: respawning is incredibly painful. There are times when I even rage-quit after a death and need to take a long break before coming back.

This is pretty much the exact opposite of vanilla where death is entirely lacking in consequence and where death becomes utterly meaningless as a result. When death becomes meaningless, so do mobs, night time, or any other form of danger. The next time you're down at the bottom of the world hunting for diamonds and your heart rate is elevated due to the tension, well, the whole reason why you're so freaked out is because stuff like two minutes of punching wood has made the whole experience more meaningful.
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Gilberreke
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Re: Future of BTW?

Post by Gilberreke »

FlowerChild wrote:Anyways, my apologies, but that's about all I got. There could be a new release tomorrow, or there might not be another one for another year. Obviously this is an incredibly frustrating situation for a guy like me that loves making games pretty much more than anything else in life, so your patience and understanding is appreciated.
I think I speak for everyone if I say the apologies aren't necessary, we got way more than we bargained for these last few years :). If you have a good day, hang out with us now and then, we miss your company. And of course, we're all rooting for your health to get better.
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BobSlingblade679
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Re: Future of BTW?

Post by BobSlingblade679 »

Ditto, Sir. Your game is just awesome. Few games have consumed more of my life than this.
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CrimsonStorm
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Re: Future of BTW?

Post by CrimsonStorm »

FlowerChild wrote:Sorry I didn't respond earlier. Being a bit of a political junky (despite the inability to discuss it here), I was glued to the TV most of the day :)

Right now, the best answer I can give is "I don't know", which is why I don't talk about such things much anymore. As has been previously mentioned, my problems with my eyesight have thrown a monkey wrench into many of my plans the past couple of years, and have left me taking pretty much everything in my life (not just the mod) on a day by day basis. I've had a few periods of improvement only to have things go south on me again after a time, so I'm reluctant to even mention it when I'm doing well as I know by now it may just be temporary. I'm also reluctant to discuss any plans I might have as my ability to follow through on them is entirely up in the air.

Anyways, my apologies, but that's about all I got. There could be a new release tomorrow, or there might not be another one for another year. Obviously this is an incredibly frustrating situation for a guy like me that loves making games pretty much more than anything else in life, so your patience and understanding is appreciated.
Like Gil said, definitely no need to apologize, that makes complete sense to me. I wasn't aware (and am sorry to hear!) that your problems with your eyesight have persisted; I hope for your own sake that you have some improvement in that realm but I understand what you mean about taking things day-by-day.

Any way around it, my original question has been more than answered, so thank you! :)
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BobSlingblade679
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Re: Future of BTW?

Post by BobSlingblade679 »

I've given it a lot of thought and given you said it was an interesting discussion, I think the wood punching is unnecessary.

It serves its purpose, true. It makes death suck that much more and makes you fear the consequences of your mistakes. However, there are a lot of things that must be done following wood punching that do the same thing. It all comes down to time. After a spawn, what do you need? Obviously, you want to get back to your main base. So, you need a compass. There's a lot that you need to get there. First, the wood punching. Get stone tools. Find 27 iron. Smelt it. All of which takes a long time. Then, you need to either find a cave that goes down to strat 3, a deep ravine, or strip mine just above it until you find it. Hell, if you're unlucky, you may end up having to strip mine with stone tools just trying to find iron. Then you have to brave the depths of strat 3 looking for redstone, which is scary as hell to me, at least. You can't break the blocks down there and there are lakes of lava to navigate. All the while feeding yourself. This is a huge time sink. But it's fun. It's engaging. But I don't want to do it again. I just want to get back to base. I don't want to die because I'll have to spend up to an in-game week getting a compass, maybe longer. And, the nature of hcSpawn makes me want to stabilize this place. I usually have a stable source of eggs before heading back to spawn.

So, even if I didn't have to punch wood at all, I'm still at stone tools, know that anything I had on me before is gone forever (assuming you don't spawn at a previous secondary base), and I'm naked, Armorless, and virtually defenseless against the monsters. I'm worried about food again. And I just lost a bunch of time. All of those things make me not want to die.

I never thought of it before, but this game is a lot like a roguelike.
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FlowerChild
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Re: Future of BTW?

Post by FlowerChild »

BobSlingblade679 wrote:It serves its purpose, true. It makes death suck that much more and makes you fear the consequences of your mistakes. However, there are a lot of things that must be done following wood punching that do the same thing.
Well, you are correct that punching wood is one of many features giving death consequence, but with this one there's the additional factor here in that the wood punching places time pressure on your first day (whether first first, or respawn first), and thus on the local food supply. Ideally, I would prefer that the first day activities involved be more diverse while maintaining that same time pressure (rush to collect enough materials to make it through the first night), but I do consider that time pressure to be rather central to the feeling of desperate survival at the start, and a greater net benefit in terms of gameplay than the lack of diversity is a negative.
It all comes down to time. After a spawn, what do you need? Obviously, you want to get back to your main base. So, you need a compass. There's a lot that you need to get there. First, the wood punching. Get stone tools. Find 27 iron. Smelt it. All of which takes a long time.
At one point in development, that's essentially what the early game / respawn experience amounted to, and I continued to turn up the pressure on the player until it hit the point I like. What qualifies as "enough" is of course subjective, but I did not personally feel that alone was enough for the experience I wanted, no.
I never thought of it before, but this game is a lot like a roguelike.
Yup, it was referred to as a "persistent rogue like" a ways back, which I thought was a particularly apt description. One of the objections I've always had to roguelikes is the total lack of a sense of progress on failed runs in many of them (playing vanilla Minecraft with permadeath would be an example). I much prefer the idea that while death should be punishing, there should be some lingering evidence of what they player has achieved in past play to give a sense of progression.
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BobSlingblade679
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Re: Future of BTW?

Post by BobSlingblade679 »

FlowerChild wrote:Well, you are correct that punching wood is one of many features giving death consequence, but with this one there's the additional factor here in that the wood punching places time pressure on your first day (whether first first, or respawn first), and thus on the local food supply. Ideally, I would prefer that the first day activities involved be more diverse while maintaining that same time pressure (rush to collect enough materials to make it through the first night), but I do consider that time pressure to be rather central to the feeling of desperate survival at the start, and a greater net benefit in terms of gameplay than the lack of diversity is a negative.
Yeah, the time pressure is important. And the feeling of progression by acquiring your first stone axe, I think, is also important. But there are ways to attain that same time pressure without compromising those two aspects, that would also feel less monotonous.
FlowerChild wrote:At one point in development, that's essentially what the early game / respawn experience amounted to, and I continued to turn up the pressure on the player until it hit the point I like. What qualifies as "enough" is of course subjective, but I did not personally feel that alone was enough for the experience I wanted, no.
And of course, I think you found the right spot. Two minutes of pain for a multiple hour payoff is surely a good trade. But, you yourself said that you would on occasion rage-quit after a death and, given you made the mod/game, I would think you'd have the most playtime. It seems to me that you believe the change is best for the mod, yet it might not be done the best way. I know your distaste for suggestions, and I understand why, but if you would be interested, I do have an idea.
FlowerChild wrote:Yup, it was referred to as a "persistent rogue like" a ways back, which I thought was a particularly apt description. One of the objections I've always had to roguelikes is the total lack of a sense of progress on failed runs in many of them (playing vanilla Minecraft with permadeath would be an example). I much prefer the idea that while death should be punishing, there should be some lingering evidence of what they player has achieved in past play to give a sense of progression.
Yeah, I think "roguelite" would actually be the most appropriate categorization. Roguelites typically have a form of progression outside of the core game so that even through death, you move forward. Games like Rogue Legacy and FlameBreak (I think that's the name) come to mind. Though, yours still has a really interesting distinction because upon death you don't keep your progression. It's off somewhere in the distance and you have to find it again.
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Re: Future of BTW?

Post by FlowerChild »

BobSlingblade679 wrote: Yeah, the time pressure is important. And the feeling of progression by acquiring your first stone axe, I think, is also important. But there are ways to attain that same time pressure without compromising those two aspects, that would also feel less monotonous.
Of course there are ways to attain that same pressure, and as I myself mentioned, I'd ideally like to diversify those early game activities. However, keep in mind my primary development principle "bang for the buck". Other solutions, and further features, would inevitably take more development time. Might I do that one day? Sure. Would the game be better right now if I removed the wood punching entirely until I have time for such things? No, I do not think it would be. As I said previously, while this isn't the ideal solution, I consider it a net gain for gameplay at very low cost.
I know your distaste for suggestions, and I understand why, but if you would be interested, I do have an idea.
Please don't :)

If you don't mind, I'd like to end this discussion here. I'm willing to explain my justifications for things, and feel that I have here, but prefer not to argue about them at length.
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BobSlingblade679
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Re: Future of BTW?

Post by BobSlingblade679 »

Fair enough. I appreciate the discussion anyway.
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Re: Future of BTW?

Post by BobSlingblade679 »

Snip -Flower

Sorry, I had to say it. But it fixes the problem with wood punching being un-fun without compromising the progression of the stone axe, or the time crunch, and doesn't require any new features.
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Re: Future of BTW?

Post by FlowerChild »

Sorry, I had to say it.
No, no you did not. Enjoy your vacation.
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Re: Future of BTW?

Post by kazerima »

Just wanted to dip in myself to give another quick thanks for all the work you've put into this mod over the years, and in particular for the inspiring design discussions that I've read through. Although I haven't been playing very much lately (aside from the LP, which only gets a recording every so rarely often when Davice is free to, and admittedly I question whether it's worth doing) whenever I do go back to it, or try building something of my own, I can always admire the level of polish it has in not just the tech tree, but little things that bring everything together into a more cohesive whole.

I also wasn't quite aware of the recurring nature of your eyesight problems, but I hope things work out well all the same and you're able to continue doing what you love.
FlowerChild wrote:BANG! BANG! BANG!!!!! AHHHHHH!!!! GET OUT OF FUCKING MY HEAD! HIRE A FUCKING GAME DESIGNER! Fuck.
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Re: Future of BTW?

Post by TallTyrionLannister »

Just want to add my voice to the refrain of thanks to FC for all of his amazing work on this mod. I've only been a consumer of his work and not someone who has contributed in any meaningful way, so I can only express thanks and give small donations here and there. But man, this mod has gotten me through some tough times in my life; when everything else going on in my world was kinda shitty, I knew I could look forward to playing this at the end of the day. I wish there was more I could do for you in turn, FC -- i actually had no idea of your health problems. Godspeed your recovery, sir!

Thanks for your years of work in developing and supporting this mod - it's a thing of beauty in it's current state and is probably one of the most balanced and rewarding experiences in gaming out there.
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