Mid-Game Slump

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jackatthekilns
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Mid-Game Slump

Post by jackatthekilns »

Hey guys, let me preface this by saying that I want to avoid any kind of suggestions for changes to the game. I would like to know if anyone else feels the same, or maybe some already existing solutions that I may have overlooked.

With that said, here is my issue. I find myself starting over often after making it to crucible tech. I have come to realize that for me the problem is my relative safety and stability, which sounds weird. I love this game and I really do want to try and make it to the end (I have yet to get a Priest beyond level 2 or so) but after a while of doing the trading grind, i find myself missing those early days when my survival was on the line, or i was constantly worried about food. It's not that this part of the game is boring. I think the trading mechanic is interesting and compelling, I just haven't been able to get through it without succumbing to the allure of that early game challenge. Does anyone else feel this way? I guess I find that there is little challenge at this point in the game. There is a lot of work to do of course, but the collection of resources doesn't feel the same as it does in the early game. Even the adventures out to find enchanting tables and vessels of the dragon don't have quite the edge that they did on my first forays to find wheat. By this point I have a good many landmarks up and I feel confident in my ability to survive these treks. Maybe I am foolhardy in my confidence and there is more danger than I perceive.

So what do you guys think? What keeps you going through the mid-game grind? Am I missing some aspect of the game?

Again, please do not use this as an opportunity to suggest changes to the game. I simply want to know if anyone else is struggling with this, and if not what I may be overlooking.
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DiamondArms
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Re: Mid-Game Slump

Post by DiamondArms »

I'm in the same stage as you in my single player world, and I've taken to building completely random things while waiting for my resources to grow. The builds thread has some of my recent work. Alternatively, find some BTW or MC related myths to test and go science better ways to do things for future use.

I've found that watching survival MC youtubers is a decent way of getting inspirations, especially with how artful some of them can be. The next project I intend to take up is building a number of construction vehicle structures.

If all else fails, sacrifice a few choice animals to the Great High One and pray for the strength to go on.
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jackatthekilns
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Re: Mid-Game Slump

Post by jackatthekilns »

Helpful suggestions (I have some appropriate sheep) I am playing a multiplayer game with my neighbor and I am hoping the company and help will give me a boost. But in single player I have tried a seed using a Fibonacci sequence to see what happens. The idea of build nice buildings intrigues me (I love what Mesh has been able to do) but its not something that comes naturally for me.
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Gilberreke
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Re: Mid-Game Slump

Post by Gilberreke »

I think the idea is that the middle game is about automating everything, which both gives you something to do and speeds up the middle game.
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FlowerChild
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Re: Mid-Game Slump

Post by FlowerChild »

This may seem odd, but I hit this mid-game slump myself :)

Personally, I love playing the early game, but tend to lose interest around the same point you're talking about (around Crucible). I was inclined to write that off to having played from that mid-game onward repeatedly over a couple of years while developing the tech aspects of the mod and thus me just personally being sick of it, but with time I've begun to think it's more than that. I've even had it happen several times where I've died and actually felt disappointed when I spawned in sight of my base instead of having to do a full HC Spawn, which is the opposite of what I'd normally expect.

There's definitely a harsh gear change that takes place around that point, which in an ideal world I would prefer to smooth out. It's also always been my goal to include more end-game objectives so that the sense of purpose associated with staying alive in the early game isn't just yanked out from under you.
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jackatthekilns
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Re: Mid-Game Slump

Post by jackatthekilns »

FlowerChild wrote:This may seem odd, but I hit this mid-game slump myself :)

Personally, I love playing the early game, but tend to lose interest around the same point you're talking about (around Crucible). I was inclined to write that off to having played from that mid-game onward repeatedly over a couple of years while developing the tech aspects of the mod and thus me just personally being sick of it, but with time I've begun to think it's more than that. I've even had it happen several times where I've died and actually felt disappointed when I spawned in sight of my base instead of having to do a full HC Spawn, which is the opposite of what I'd normally expect.

There's definitely a harsh gear change that takes place around that point, which in an ideal world I would prefer to smooth out. It's also always been my goal to include more end-game objectives so that the sense of purpose associated with staying alive in the early game isn't just yanked out from under you.
Its good to hear that I'm not alone. I really think that for me it is the lack of danger or the lack of aggressive resource management. I figured that the end game changes would affect this aspect of the game. I don't have any ideas on how to fix it (not that you need them) The lack of resource management is a reward for all the work that I put into to get wheat and the crucible. I would not want that reward removed. I think I want my progression to be dependent on my skill, not just my ability to collect resources. I know automation requires skill and knowledge, but resource collection can be done without it. Those are my thoughts anyway. I fully intend to keep playing whether you change this part of the game or not and I look forward to whatever you have for the end-game
Mesh
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Re: Mid-Game Slump

Post by Mesh »

I've felt this too. I tend to take a break from the game shortly after hitting crucible tech. It's that leap in technology that the crucible represents, unlimited iron opens up a hell of a lot of doors. However when I come back to the game, I usually use the new tech as an opportunity to colonise the Nether. The Nether represents a fairly massive boost in difficulty which goes some way to offset the "Iron age". I build portals far out at each cardinal direction and attempt to connect them through the Nether. I start building some infrastructure down there too.

With this said, I do still feel the pull toward a fresh spawn. I understand of course that the Soulforged Steel beacon can go some way to getting that fresh spawn feeling back however with hardcore spawn in the game, it doesn't quite capture the full experience. I guess there's nothing quite like that first day!

However I do suggest using the opportunity to head to the Nether and tame it, it can provide a nice change of pace.
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Sarudak
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Re: Mid-Game Slump

Post by Sarudak »

Yeah I have a really difficult time with the mid-game slump too. I love the early game so much and I feel like the hunt for the first three diamonds is the climax of excitement for me but I lose motivation hard once I've got wheat and a crucible. At that point any kind of advancement feels so far away and the pressure is totally off.
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dawnraider
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Re: Mid-Game Slump

Post by dawnraider »

Really, in order to avoid this I do a couple things: One, I build the shit out of my base, that way I can alternate between grinding for tech and making everything pretty (80% of my base, pictures in the show us your builds thread, was built between crucible and steel); two, I explore the nether. This is twofold, both giving the occasional shit your pants moment that's so good from the early game, and allowing for easier expansion later in the game.
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jackatthekilns
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Re: Mid-Game Slump

Post by jackatthekilns »

So I have decided to take dawnraider's advice and concentrate on building. As well as taking a leaf out of mesh's book and plan on building a town with appropriate places for villagers later. I am, however, staring over. so we will see how it goes. The seed that I usually play on has a nice river area that should make a great little village with plenty of access to water for power. And I have already died so no its time for some hardcore spawn fun!
EtherealWrath
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Re: Mid-Game Slump

Post by EtherealWrath »

I'm in the same boat; the building and design aspects really take off around this point, as well as kicking off some larger projects such as a full scale mob grinder or rail networks.

My other habit was the self-imposed rule of only using iron once for tools/armour (recycled iron is fine for pistons/pumps ect). I loved the early cave diving and the resource scarcity that came with it. Needing to keep my tools together kept me going back into danger and gave me real reason for doing so. It also got me role-playing as a blacksmith- which becomes a lot of fun in its own right ;)
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ion
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Re: Mid-Game Slump

Post by ion »

for me the slump comes from the mindless grinding for items and try to rush to the end for the automation building spree. i really like the sublocks available at saw and anvil and i use them in every build.
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razar51
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Re: Mid-Game Slump

Post by razar51 »

I feel a bit differently. For me personally, I have always enjoyed the automation aspects of BTW more than any other feature. The early game, while certainly enjoyable, tends to leave me feeling confined until I reach about crucible tech. This has led me to become more creative with the earlier tech though in order to scratch my automation itch, which is a plus.

The odd thing is that I have encountered a slump right around when I reach anvil tech, when automation options open up more broadly. This has confused me for a while since it should be the tech level I have the most fun with.

I thought about it for a while and came up with a few things that may partially explain my feelings:

- I never end up making a good enough Nether Mob trap, so am always low on gold (my fault). This frustrates my plans to build any significant contraptions.
- By the time I unlock all of the fancy automation blocks, I have already reached a point where I do not feel the need to automate as much. I have already built a mob trap, a large farm and animal breeding area for food, secured my base, made secure inroads into the nether, semi-automized a fair amount of resource production, and in the process manually gathered a significant amount of material that I have stored away.
- The tasks that automation would make easier have mostly been finished manually. I have full iron or diamond equipment, plenty of high tier food, tons of torches, killed the wither and nether dragon, have roads and beacons spread around my world, have tons of bookcases for enchantment room, plenty of hemp and other plants from large manual farms, plenty of stone from digging and a healthy stock of wood from clearing the area around my base, etc.

Has anyone else encountered a slump at this level of tech as well?
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Ethinolicbob
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Re: Mid-Game Slump

Post by Ethinolicbob »

razar51 wrote:I feel a bit differently. For me personally, I have always enjoyed the automation aspects of BTW more than any other feature
I am the same with enjoying automation and I think that it is the cause of my midgame slump.

I think I dislike doing the villager trading. It requires a lot of micromanaging and you end up spending a lot of time in a chest inventory or the trading GUI which is really unlike a lot of the rest of the gameplay. And while you can automate a lot of the things for trading with them you still cant get away from sitting in that GUI and swapping this for that.
The only part I like about villager trading for me is the level up items because that requires you to have gotten them and getting back home alive :D
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jackatthekilns
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Re: Mid-Game Slump

Post by jackatthekilns »

I like the way villager trading is set up. I think it makes a lot of sense and it does encourage automation and/or large builds. I really like that BTW gives you a reason to build things. I am afraid that this thread has the potential for people to list aspects of the game that they are not happy with. I can see that this may have been inevitable considering the OP, but lets try to avoid that. It was not what I wanted to start. I am encouraged to know that I am not alone in my experience and that there are some who enjoy the mid-game.
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Gilberreke
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Re: Mid-Game Slump

Post by Gilberreke »

I've been thinking it over and what bothers me slightly about mid-game is not the villagers trades. It's a bit of a lull, but it encourages you to start ramping up, to counter that lull. It's what drives automation the most imo. What bothers me is the fact that after doing all these trades, the last one is the wither fight, which requires grinding wither skeletons. Grinding wither skeletons, to me, is the most boring task in all of Minecraft, since at that point, they really don't pose a threat anymore and the drops are so low, it took me 8 hours of grinding to get 2 heads. I quit that world shortly afterwards. I haven't tried making a wither skeleton farm yet, so maybe that's the way?
jackatthekilns wrote:I am afraid that this thread has the potential for people to list aspects of the game that they are not happy with.
Complaining about the state of affairs in a respectful manner is what first got us the mod and then all these wonderful years of updates, I'm pretty sure this thread was overdue actually :). We've become a bit complacent because the quality level has become so high that we don't dare express the few things we don't like anymore.
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FlowerChild
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Re: Mid-Game Slump

Post by FlowerChild »

Gilberreke wrote:Complaining about the state of affairs in a respectful manner is what first got us the mod and then all these wonderful years of updates, I'm pretty sure this thread was overdue actually :).
Yup, absolutely. This thread is giving me a few things to think about to be sure.

I don't mind constructive negative feedback that isn't ranting or persistent whining. The feedback forum is still there, but I think it confuses many who lean more towards making suggestions rather than expressing their impressions.

Anyways, no need to move this thread over there or what have you. There isn't enough traffic on the forums these days to warrant that kind of over-categorization. Keeping things conversational here is fine, so just carry on with the discussion as you were, and I'll continue observing until I feel compelled to chime in :)
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Ethinolicbob
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Re: Mid-Game Slump

Post by Ethinolicbob »

Gilberreke wrote:Complaining about the state of affairs in a respectful manner is what first got us the mod
Aye and also at this stage those of us who frequent here are passionate about this game.
jackatthekilns wrote: I am afraid that this thread has the potential for people to list aspects of the game that that happy with
Before this thread I never really thought about why the game slumps for me mid-game. In fact on the server that I play on we had agreed last month to start a fresh world next week despite all the fantastic development in that world because some of us were caught in that slump, while others are big fans of the early game and there is no way to go back to early game with HCS on an existing world
jackatthekilns wrote:I like the way villager trading is set up. I think it makes a lot of sense and it does encourage automation and/or large builds
Don't get me wrong, I think it is fantastic for that reason. Designing automated builds is the biggest draw card for me and having a more reasons to do it is fantastic. It's just the process of doing the trades that bothers me.
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FlowerChild
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Re: Mid-Game Slump

Post by FlowerChild »

Ethinolicbob wrote:It's just the process of doing the trades that bothers me.
Can you walk me through an example of what you mean? Been awhile since I played that portion of the tech tree, and a more precise example might help me diagnose the problem better.
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Re: Mid-Game Slump

Post by Equitis1024 »

FlowerChild wrote:There's definitely a harsh gear change that takes place around that point, which in an ideal world I would prefer to smooth out. It's also always been my goal to include more end-game objectives so that the sense of purpose associated with staying alive in the early game isn't just yanked out from under you.
Yeah, I think that hits the nail on the head for me. I hadn't really thought about it before, but that gear change definitely explains why I stopped playing my last world right after I got a crucible. It kinda felt like I had beaten the game. In the early game for me the two big resources are food and iron, and there is a gradual transition from being very focused on one to being very focused on the other. By the time I get a surplus of renewable food, my priority has already shifted to iron some time ago. But when the crucible solves the iron problem, that's it. Iron had been diminishing as a concern for a while, but the other priorities along the way had only been temporary bottlenecks. I had never interacted with a villager before that point, and there didn't seem to be a lot of payoff to starting. Obviously advanced automation is the big payoff, but there hasn't been any regular activity pre-crucible that is so frustrating that it begs for anvil tech.

I also completely agree with Ethinolicbob about the process of villager trading. I like acquiring the resources for trades, but the actual trading is a lot of mucking around in GUIs. My workflow, as best I can remember it, was something like "tab through a villager's available trades, complete the ones I can, note the new trades that opened up, walk to nearby chest to check for any of those resources, walk back to villager, repeat until finished with that villager, then repeat for other villagers until I have nothing left." Basically, the actual trading felt like it was taking too much time. I really liked the large volumes of resources that were required in the end, but the large volume of *individual trades* wasn't fun for me.

Edit: Oh and I just remembered that sometimes somewhere in that workflow was "check if other villager is offering a better deal on this item." In hindsight that was probably a stupid thing to do.
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CryoPhönix
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Re: Mid-Game Slump

Post by CryoPhönix »

Since the conversation has sparked I thought I'll share my view as well.

I think what slows me down the most is the way risk changes.
If I don't take the time to establish sustainable food/reuseable iron, the time investment as well as the inherent risk will only get higher.
Which makes this a necessary goal to me.
However once I reach crucible tech the risks I would have to take to progress further seem completely optional instead of necessary.
At this point in the game I basically have all the tools and materials to achieve most of what I would want to do.

Also the time past crucible doesn't feel like a slump to me but rather a self achieved comfert zone I have no reason leave until I gather enogh reasons to do so.
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Ethinolicbob
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Re: Mid-Game Slump

Post by Ethinolicbob »

FlowerChild wrote:Can you walk me through an example of what you mean?
Heh, now your asking me to be articulate.
Instead I am going to use one of Mesh's videos (sorry Mesh) as an example of the process. And as I said earlier, a lot of sitting in Gui's swapping things in and out of inventories
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hawk
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Re: Mid-Game Slump

Post by hawk »

razar51 wrote:I feel a bit differently. For me personally, I have always enjoyed the automation aspects of BTW more than any other feature. The early game, while certainly enjoyable, tends to leave me feeling confined until I reach about crucible tech. This has led me to become more creative with the earlier tech though in order to scratch my automation itch, which is a plus.

The odd thing is that I have encountered a slump right around when I reach anvil tech, when automation options open up more broadly. This has confused me for a while since it should be the tech level I have the most fun with.

I thought about it for a while and came up with a few things that may partially explain my feelings:

- I never end up making a good enough Nether Mob trap, so am always low on gold (my fault). This frustrates my plans to build any significant contraptions.
- By the time I unlock all of the fancy automation blocks, I have already reached a point where I do not feel the need to automate as much. I have already built a mob trap, a large farm and animal breeding area for food, secured my base, made secure inroads into the nether, semi-automized a fair amount of resource production, and in the process manually gathered a significant amount of material that I have stored away.
- The tasks that automation would make easier have mostly been finished manually. I have full iron or diamond equipment, plenty of high tier food, tons of torches, killed the wither and nether dragon, have roads and beacons spread around my world, have tons of bookcases for enchantment room, plenty of hemp and other plants from large manual farms, plenty of stone from digging and a healthy stock of wood from clearing the area around my base, etc.

Has anyone else encountered a slump at this level of tech as well?
This is where my interest starts to wane as well. Other than efficient gold farming (which did take me a while to get right), I feel like I would have written a nearly identical post. Further, this is fairly consistent for me. If I remember correctly, I've gone from first spawn to Anvil Tech 6-7 times in single player and another 3 in multiplayer. I think I've only had another 5 game starts that I put at least a few hours into that didn't get to that point so, as I said, fairly consistent. The tension of the early game is absolutely awesome but I appreciate the sense of relief that comes from the crucible. There is no denying that the game changes at this point and I can understand why I'm in the minority with regards to where the lull hits me. I think the reason for this is that I am very careful pre-crucible only taking calculated risks where as after this point I really up the reckless factor when exploring. I also usually go on a building spree and start terraforming my immediate area with extreme prejudice :). I will say that I hit a mini lull after this but my complacency usually leads to HCS and a new early game or two. Side note: I really like having multiple bases but they only seem to start out of necessity of a new spawn and not knowing how to make it back.

I think my slump problem post anvil tech is that we have all these awesome automation tools at our disposal but no real reason to use them other than cool factor and maybe building a full tier SFS beacon (if you have the stamina for that sort of thing). That said, content has to stop at some point; this is a sandbox game so building "just because" is implied; and everything up to this point in the game has been so good that it has elicited more play throughs than any other game I have ever played.
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kregoth
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Re: Mid-Game Slump

Post by kregoth »

It's been awhile since I played, but I too have had the mid game slump just after crucible. This topic really got me thinking as to why, and part of me feels that the Moment-to-Moment gameplay that is apparent early game, gets somewhat put to the wayside for more player made decisions that aren't related to what they have to deal with. Not that it's completely missing, but more in that the player made decision are less reactionary decision because of what the game is doing or has generated.

To me I lose the "Fear" of the world. Once I am established, most of the Hardcore mechanics no longer become a huge issue to deal with, which is the greatest feeling once you're there! But I realize most my decisions are purely for progression after that. This I feel is my lumpish feeling. I love how often good plans go to crap in the early game, but mid game most those failures just aren't as painful anymore.

Maybe I am not using the right words here for what I mean, but a lot of the natural discovery of the games major changes aren't nearly as daunting anymore, and the player is less about caring for their immediate need, and instead is stuck with "what do I work on next?" One observation for me has always been after using Nether portals, the first time you discover what they do (outside teleporting) you have a whole new slew of stuff to deal with that is problematic. but once you mastered that, it too is less daunting. "Hell Haths more fury!"
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jackatthekilns
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Re: Mid-Game Slump

Post by jackatthekilns »

Hey guys,

In light of the recent updates (Thanks FC!) I thought I would necro this thread and see how the new features have affected our experiences. As a reminder, this is not a suggestion thread.

As for me, I have had a crucible running for a while now and have gone a 1 grand adventure that netted me wheat and a good chunk of gold. I haven't come up with a strategy for dealing with villagers yet. and I have to admit that has made this stage of the game more interesting to me. I haven't done any trading with the new system so I am looking forward to that. So all I can say at this point is that If I do experience a sense of a slump, it has been moved further down the progression.

I have also found that I enjoy building more than i think I did when i first opened this thread so I think that is helping stave off the slump as well.

So what has been your experience? have you gotten villagers to trade with? If you experienced this mid-game slump, have the new changes affected that?
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