Hardcore Spawn Difficulty

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gaga654
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Hardcore Spawn Difficulty

Post by gaga654 »

I've been trying to start a new world lately (something which I haven't done in quite a while), and I've been having some trouble coming to grips with hardcore spawn. What's happened a couple times is I make some significant progress, usually just getting to the start of iron tools and renewable food, and the end up dying. At that point, it feels like all the time I've put in so far has just been completely wasted--I know there's no chance I'll find my house again until I've advanced significantly to the point where I've obsoleted all the progress I already made. I'm interested to hear other people's thoughts on this. I know it's a mechanic that people tend to enjoy, so I feel like there's something I'm missing and I'm trying to figure out how I can change my attitude towards it.
Mesh
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Re: Hardcore Spawn Difficulty

Post by Mesh »

Well first of all, the progress you have made isn't wasted at all, because your home is still out there, you just have to find it. However you are supposed to essentially treat these places as "Involuntary Outposts" so to speak. In other words, you die, then build a new safehouse, stock it with supplies before you leave with the plan that you will someday be back there and can continue that safehouse at a later date. As you build up these areas you will naturally amass an empire of sorts. Later you can then link them with roads.

Roads Roads Roads, build them out from your settlements.

As you explore, or go hunting, or generally leave the vicinity of your home, take extra cobble and torches, place beacons down within eyesight of each other. So, found a hill? Throw a beacon on it, put the torch on the side of the beacon point the direction back to your home, that way when you're exploring in your 2nd, 3rd, 4th settlement, you are more likely to come across these markers.

Most important is to realise that all progress you make is never wasted, and there are few moments in games that give you that euphoria of happening upon a safehouse after a fresh death.

Always remember to stock a safehouse with some key supplies before you leave...
Shafts, Wood (preferably planks), cobble, a few torches if you can spare the coal, leave as much food as you can, you can always find more on your way "home"
EtherealWrath
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Re: Hardcore Spawn Difficulty

Post by EtherealWrath »

I love the HCS mechanics- but I'll be honest, at the time it sucks. It feels like a massive kick between the legs.
So cling to life with everything you've got- A near death experience is one hell of a thrill ride. And coming out alive feels epic. An inherently risky activity (like cave diving) becomes a deeply gripping and intense experience.

But sometimes stuff happens. Don't fret- you haven't wasted your current progress as you've tamed a part of the world, and your base is still there for when you return. As you survive and hunt, you'll build shelters as you go. Everything you build ultimately makes HCS recovery easier, as your more likely to land near a shelter.
Right now you're in the stage where you're investing a lot- but have yet to see the returns. Chin up and soldier on; the longer enjoyment of Better than Wolves (for me certainly) is the sense of satisfaction as your world develops and grows with you.
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Taleric
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Re: Hardcore Spawn Difficulty

Post by Taleric »

Yeah HCS takes a moment to grasp. Looking back I think the feature and play it creates might be a first for survival fully destructible games.

Imagine the whole big HCS area as "the game". HCS nudges us to flesh out the whole map. The initial rediscoveries are amazing and every road and building pave the way to conquering the land.

You actually get more investent with HCS then say a rouge like because every effort you make in sculpting that HCS area will become your experience.

Play things one spawn at a time. Leave your mark some signs and maybe a stash for some day :)
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Daisjun
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Re: Hardcore Spawn Difficulty

Post by Daisjun »

I think everyone gets apprehensive with it at first, which is understandable. But death without some dire consequence behind it is pointless.

The constantly looming threat of imminent death in BTW is honestly terrifying, as it should be. The idea that you can just die, spawn, walk a couple of meters and grab your stuff as if nothing happened completely nullifies the survival aspect of the game. Don't even get me started on 'keep inventory', Jesus...at that point you might as well be playing in creative.

After a while you get used to it. As you go through you get more and more adept with dealing with death (just like in RL, ha) as other people have said, and it really encourages you to explore which I think is great.
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dawnraider
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Re: Hardcore Spawn Difficulty

Post by dawnraider »

One of my favorite experiences in BTW has been having to deal with HC spawn. It honestly is really satisfying when, after a few deaths, you die and immediately say, "Wait, I know this place." It took about 5 deaths before I got to the point where I could immediately recover (granted I only didn't make it to spawn on one of those). Every time I would explore as much as I could around my spawn location, leaving markers towards my temporary base. Then, once I got a compass, I would place markers all the way to spawn. Now I have roads connecting all of my bases, with markers everywhere pointing to those roads, so on the rare occasion that I die, I can immediately get back to my base.

Honestly, that right there is the satisfaction with HCS. It sucks balls the first few times you die, but it actually becomes a lot more fun after that as a direct result of dying.
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Whuppee
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Re: Hardcore Spawn Difficulty

Post by Whuppee »

When you die, there's almost certainly something you could have done differently or better. Analyze why you died. As you improve, you'll die less.

Prioritize getting a compass, then relocate or mark a trail to spawn. This safeguards your efforts.

Less frequent deaths and seeing each attempt as a less than total loss may improve your enjoyment.
RalphKastro
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Re: Hardcore Spawn Difficulty

Post by RalphKastro »

One thing that I noticed used to leave a sour taste in my mouth was how I treated the initial spawn back when I was getting used to it.
Your Spawn Base is not just another base in your entire world. It's the center of every outpost. It's the one place you always go back to. The easiest place to find(just needs a compass). It doesn't matter that you died long before even getting the first iron pickaxe there, always be bringing your newest tech there whenever you can and make sure to at least try and make a half-permanent settlement there.

You'll probably notice a great improvement in your enjoyment of HCS once you start thinking like that. At least I did.
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ion
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Re: Hardcore Spawn Difficulty

Post by ion »

for me it's mostly one base that i always try to expand with roads. in the later stages i just make portals with a nether base and tunnels, but the overworld road is always expanding. when i die i just rush a compass and go back home. i don't really try to make a base there at all, just the minimum necessary. and i also game the system by dying after few days so i get another spawns and place some torches again.
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jstu9
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Re: Hardcore Spawn Difficulty

Post by jstu9 »

Oh yeah, hardcore spawn sucks.

But it gives consequence to death.

In my last world, my best experience in the entire game was one Sunday afternoon was after a death. I spawned (in retrospect) almost directly north of my base by ~1000 blocks. By an abandoned village. I survived a couple days. Then I guessed. I went south! Which would have been awesome if I had gone directly south. But nope, due to a jungle i went west a bit too and missed my base by a couple hundred blocks. After travelling for days, making small holes in the ground, collecting food and wood and the occasional iron and coal. I found a ravine in a swamp way south of my base. I knew by now I was almost certainly south of base. But for the very first and only time, I got enough iron and then got redstone and fashioned myself a compass.

I actually never make outposts. I have one base. I have a million hole in the wall places.

When I die, i wander. Early on (as early as possible) I explore. I put markers north, south, east and west. It's a great way to mark the area, great to know the area so when you see it again, you know you might be close. (Like last time i died, I came upon a plains... with no animals on it... hmm, i wonder if that is the plains just east of my base? It was). Great for food. With the changes to brown mushrooms, I think it is vital to explore more.

So, when i die I go and find my base.
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Ulfengaard
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Re: Hardcore Spawn Difficulty

Post by Ulfengaard »

I think it depends on your level of skill, of course. I also think it really alleviates a lot of the world restart syndrome that some folks have (which was a major obstacle to progression and, I believe, FC's vision of the game), and some people see the challenge as very fulfilling once overcome. But, it remains also a matter of taste. If it works for you, then it works. If it doesn't, then it doesn't. I always encourage my friends to give it a solid go, but it didn't work for me. I am too hard of hearing to make meaningful progress before dying. I used to just power through the deaths anyway, but HCS ended that for me. Before that, when I would die, the mindset that helped me was thinking how it was not as bad as starting from complete scratch (i.e. a new world). You can probably apply that mindset to your deaths, as well, thanks to the good feedback here.
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gaga654
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Re: Hardcore Spawn Difficulty

Post by gaga654 »

I know this is late, but I want to thank everyone for your thoughts on this. I realize now that I had the entirely wrong mindset on how to play with hardcore spawn, which I think ultimately comes from the lack of renewable food at first. I'm not sure why exactly, but something about not having renewable food makes me want to do nothing but work towards acquiring it. I think it's because I like being able to do things at my own pace, and without renewable food I feel like I can't do that because if I take too long I'll eventually exhaust all the food in the area. I realize, of course, that this is a misconception--there's enough food in the area that I really don't have to hurry to get something renewable before it runs out. Nevertheless, this strongly affects my playstyle because I feel a lot of unease at the fact that doing nothing for too long will eventually kill me.

As you can imagine, this leads to a lot of problems with hardcore spawn because I don't do any early game exploration. A typical early game might have me mining and hunting around my base, maybe to the point where I can get an iron hoe/pickaxe and some pumpkins growing. Only after that point would I put in any attempt at exploration. So naturally, if I die before that happens, any progress I made is pretty much entirely wasted. I have almost no chance of finding my original base until I've already set up a new base, acquired food there, and then gone exploring.

I realize now that going exploring and leaving markers around would help a lot and largely alleviate the problems I've been having. I think I'll try starting a new world soon and see how it goes. As an aside, I'd be interested in what other people are doing for their first renewable food. Do you go out looking for pumpkins or cocoa beans, or use them only if you happen to come across them. Do you wait until you have a compass, and then immediately go out searching for a village? Also, one of the other reasons I try to look for food early on is the difficulty of traveling long distances. What strategies do you use when you are ready to get animal pens but there are no more animals nearby?

Thanks for reading all this, I realize I've written a lot!
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razar51
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Re: Hardcore Spawn Difficulty

Post by razar51 »

The first renewable food I usually get is eggs. Feeding chickens pumpkin/melon seeds (hemp seeds if desperate). Combine that with a cow pen with grass floor for milk and you can get a fairly stable supply of scrambled eggs. It is useful to sequester some chickens and at least 2 cows as early as possible so that you don't have to trek a huge distance when you finally have the capability of using them.

I also neglect exploring for the most part unless I feel prepared. So instead of a constant exploration of my surroundings I end up going on 'expeditions' where I gather a significant amount of traveling gear (material for markers, food, weapons, torches, etc.). I always make markers that point back to my base and always try to get back to my original base when I die. When I explore the world it is usually when I hit a point that I think to myself: "I am in a fairly stable position for my tech level. If I want to progress more in any significant way then I need X (vines, wheat, etc.)."
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FlowerChild
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Re: Hardcore Spawn Difficulty

Post by FlowerChild »

Eggs + mushrooms for me on my most recent world. I usually starting digging for diamonds fairly early on, so mushrooms come along with that.
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Ethinolicbob
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Re: Hardcore Spawn Difficulty

Post by Ethinolicbob »

I think the mindset you need to have is that you always respawn in your base, but you need to rethink the scope of your base to the size of HCS.

I honestly don't attempt to progress much for most of the early game. I tend to flesh out a little of the hole at spawn then go out hunter-gathering for a few in-game days in each of the cardinal directions, leaving out a little of the left of it and returning on the right. While out I hunt anything I can, leave upside down L's in plain sight pointing back to spawn and holes in the ground with a furnace and a little bit of meat cooking in it so that if I die and chance upon it I will be sweet.

If you die and respawn somewhere that you don't recognise you honestly should just make a hole, build some supplies, explore the surrounding area and leave something for a future death. If you don't and die a pointless death you are essentially griefing your own base as you are depleting any chance of survival for yourself the next time you respawn in the area.

It doesn't take long for myself playing in this manner until I have explored and learned the layout of my HCS base and can easily navigate myself home. I find it less of a risk than caving and don't tend to die. By the time I have an iron picks worth of iron I make a shaft to the bottom of the second strata, dig shafts out the cardinal directions and dig out chambers of dirt and gravel until I find a cave that descends. Use the dirt to block the cave in the unlit directions and find redstone, make a compass and then go back to hunter and gathering this time spiraling out leaving more dirt markers.
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Foxy Boxes
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Re: Hardcore Spawn Difficulty

Post by Foxy Boxes »

Build a chest at each of your hidey holes. Carry only what you need.

Seriously, I have a major problem remembering to build (and use) chests, so when I die, I tend to lose at lot of progress just from having stuff in my inventory. Reminds me of a suggestion a long time ago (was browsing that subforum for nostalgia) about limited inventory space, only now it's self-enforced.
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dawnraider
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Re: Hardcore Spawn Difficulty

Post by dawnraider »

I normally don't explore much, if at all, early game. I rush tech as fast as possible (including food), then explore only after significant progress has been made. The only thing that slows me down is that I always make sure to have a building for something instead of just plopping it anywhere. And if I die, I quite frankly don't even bother setting up renewable food. I go as fast as possible to get a compass, then the second I do I immediately leave (setting markers on the way back of course). I do leave a bit of extra meat and a couple tools in it so I can survive the journey back if I find that hovel again on subsequent deaths.

Granted, take this with a grain of salt because I very rarely die (usually once or twice before getting crucible) so I don't have much experience with the issue of repeatedly dying and losing progress.
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Gilberreke
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Re: Hardcore Spawn Difficulty

Post by Gilberreke »

I'm writing this post as if it was written to a blithering idiot. Whoever reads this: I know you're smarter, but I'm not assuming anything and these points need to be hammered in for some people. Don't take it personally, I love all of you throbbingly hard <3

Never respawn and go nomad to figure out if you're close to spawn. That usually is what gets most people I see go through the HCS again and again.

Have a HCS strategy. Here's mine:

- When I respawn, I go hunting, looking for the biome edge if one isn't visible
- As you finish day one, make your hidey hole on an intersection of three biomes (if you can't, move asap)
- Start going towards sustainable food (just barely is good enough, chicken coop and a small farm is just fine)
- Find diamond level by mining, not caving, get a compass
- Build a high tower above your base
- Mark all the nearby intersections of three biomes to point at your tower base
- Go home

Note: there are only a few dozen three biome intersections in your HCS range, by focusing on those, you just completely eradicated the complexity of navigation. If you get to a good point at spawn, start building roads on biome edges to these bases.

About the mining, not caving:

- Caving early game is what kills you usually
- You don't need to
- You really don't need to

Here's how to get diamonds early (same strategy for early redstone):

- Use your stone picks to dig to second strata
- Dig above second strata until you hit a cave or get enough iron for a pick, whichever comes first
- Make an iron pick (if you're grabbing ore from a cave, be methodical, don't risk a thing)
- Go back to your stairway, start digging into second strata until you hit third strata
- Dig above third strata until you hit a cave
- Grab three diamonds

Important note: see how at no point, I say: "get lucky and find a cave that goes deep". It's not about luck, it's about a strategy to make sure you find one. You don't go caving until you find one that goes deep, you methodically dig a tunnel until it hits one that's already deep. You aren't "unlucky" with a world that doesn't have a deep cave, you just won't find them by caving. Every seed I've ever tried has them and I've tried dozens if not hundreds over the years. I've had exactly one freak seed where it took me days of digging to find one. I still found one, by digging.

Other tips:

- You're hitting too often, mobs have a cooldown where they can't be hit. Hit once, retreat, hit again, don't spam click, it'll ruin your stone axe and now you're dead
- Always grab pumpkins if you see them, use the seeds to grab chickens
- Go exploring for food, exploring means you've seen at least 7 biomes, if you haven't, you're just dicking around spawn and telling yourself you explored for food. My last hunting trip in early game, I got 3 stacks of food in a single MC day. That lasts me aaaaages. Food is not an issue.
- To make food last ages, don't jump. Ever. Don't. Always have at least two full stacks of slabs on your person at all times
- Plan your day. To get 3 stacks of food, you explore, find animals and go on a murder spree, don't bother taking in the scenery, because you need to be back by dusk or all this food is gone at night.
- To plan your days: inventory management. Be insanely OCD about what's in your inventory. There should only be stuff there that helps the plan for the day.
- Don't blame stuff on not being good at thing X. The problem is planning, always. Surviving in BTW takes effort. Effort to plan. Effort to look around at all times. "Yeah, but I get tunnel vision, I can't help it" Yes you can, I don't see Counter-strike players complain that they are bad because their hand doesn't automatically aimbot. They train that shit through effort.

Day planning checklist (do this way before sunrise, if it's sunrise and you haven't planned, go tomorrow):

- Clear inventory
- Clear inventory, seriously
- Figure out a gameplan: where, how much, when do you need to start going back? Single item a day, don't get sidetracked
- Stop being lazy, clear your inventory!
- Do I have food for what I'm going to do? At least a stack of whatever you have, don't go exploring with 3 pieces of pork
- Do I need anything on the road? I usually bring a furnace and a crafting table, that's a full minute of daylight if not more I save
- Bring wood, chopping trees when you are hunting or looking for something wastes a LOT of time. Stack of planks, always. Stack of sticks too probably. Potentially half a stack of logs for burning or if your planks run out.
- If you have enough cobble, bring some
- Stack of dirt probably
- Torches. At least a single one, probably just bring your collection. One mistake and a new moon and you're screwed.
- At least 6 stone axes, at least two on your hotbar !!!
- 4 pickaxes, one or two on your hotbar
- At least one shovel, hotbar
- Slabs, stack on the hotbar, stack in the inventory
- Requirements for the task at hand
- Exit door strategy. Which way to go out, where do mobs usually hide, where is your heading?

One last more gamey bit of info: be wary of what's loaded. Hunting spots are in unloaded chunks, try to get in there and out there before night, so they're unloaded, that way, you can raid the area multiple times. I have a plains biome right next to spawn, just outside of loaded area, I think I've hunted there three times, probably like 7 stacks of meat in that plains. That's stacks, not animals. One wrong move and a night and I could ruin that spot.
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destineternel
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Re: Hardcore Spawn Difficulty

Post by destineternel »

Gil nailed it. I can not add anything to that.
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jstu9
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Re: Hardcore Spawn Difficulty

Post by jstu9 »

I explore. And as early as possible.

There are just way too many benefits to exploring your HCS area to not do it. It yields lots of food. It allows you to put markers pointing to your main base. Ability to get pumpkins and sugar cane. Often find a witch hut. And depending on how far I go, I can get a village with wheat (or more). And just having a sense what biomes are where.
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Ethinolicbob
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Re: Hardcore Spawn Difficulty

Post by Ethinolicbob »

Gilberreke wrote:Note: there are only a few dozen three biome intersections in your HCS range, by focusing on those, you just completely eradicated the complexity of navigation. If you get to a good point at spawn, start building roads on biome edges to these bases.
That is a fantastic strategy and something that I am definitely going to utilise. Cheers!
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dawnraider
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Re: Hardcore Spawn Difficulty

Post by dawnraider »

Great summary, Gil, that was actually really well laid out. Basically I agree with everything (a lot of the stuff I had been doing without thinking), but the three biome thing is actually a great idea that I hadn't thought of.
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EpicAaron
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Re: Hardcore Spawn Difficulty

Post by EpicAaron »

Gilberreke wrote: - Caving early game is what kills you usually
- You don't need to
- You really don't need to
Gil's been playing for a long time so I'm sure his methods are sound, but I do want to caution against the strict avoidance of surface caving.

I used to abhor many aspects of the new BTW early game because I thought it was boring. Back then, I was a very timid BTW player. I would only ever leave my bases for hunting trips, and my only source of iron and deep strata ores would be strip mining in much the same way that Gil described above. Of course, spending hours at a time vainly digging staircases and shafts and occasionally being stuck without the torches to continue got very boring. I'd often give up on the game for months or go nomad after a death because I did not feel that the process was worth repeating.

I only really opened up to the early game experience very recently when I fully embraced the danger of cave diving. Surface cave systems are absolutely loaded with iron and coal, and the stress of a careful expedition can be a refreshing respite from the monotony of stone pick mining. I've also found that most surface caves reach into the lowest strata, so I usually never have to resort to strip mining. In my most recent single player world, I found that I had secured such an abundance of iron that I had achieved nether access and a cauldron well before my hemp had fully grown!

What I'm trying to say is that an over attachment to caution can dull the game play. In the early game there isn't all that much to lose beyond a couple of minutes of wood punching and stone tools anyway, so I say the risk is well worth the reward.
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FlowerChild
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Re: Hardcore Spawn Difficulty

Post by FlowerChild »

EpicAaron wrote: Gil's been playing for a long time so I'm sure his methods are sound, but I do want to caution against the strict avoidance of surface caving.
I think that's a solid point. I'd say most of my initial iron after a respawn comes from a combination of surface caves, and subsurface ones that I find using methods like Gil's. I'll usually explore surface ones during the day, and work on the mine under my base at night. I don't usually go deep into the surface ones, just enough to check for any easily accessible iron as I move around hunting or what have you.

What I would advise against (obviously) is surface level caving at night unless you carefully block off the entrance(s).
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Gilberreke
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Re: Hardcore Spawn Difficulty

Post by Gilberreke »

The reason I said that was because he's dying a lot, telling him there's lots of iron to be gained in surface caves is madness imo. Especially since my post was aimed at the very lowest entry point. Maybe gaga654 is above that level and can assess that for himself.

I never said not to cave btw, just not the hard ones. I advise very strongly against branch mining at stone or iron tech, it's just not worth it and it's very boring.

The point is that surface caves are more dangerous, as it's hard to find a good entrance point and night time might screw you over, they rarely ever lead to bottom strata and they aren't necessary as people seem to think.

Digging a staircase will almost always net you with a good deep cave, and the staircase provides a way better secure access point. I go into the cave, make the entrance secure with some dirt walling and a window or two into the cave, cordon off small sections, grab the iron and get out. That way, you always have a plan.

Sure, I'm a decent BTW player, so I'll assess risk and go surface caving when it's worth it, but he's dying all the time, so his skillset is imo not suited to that. So yeah, caves good, but only if you can access them safely.
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